BMW? are they loosing the performance advantage they once had?

Nismo · 1 Jun 2005, 10:49 (Ref:1316640)

After producing some of the best engines in recent years, it seems the power advantage they had during 2001-2003 has been lost. last year their engine was ok, this year it seem very weak compared to the opposition and they often run limited revs.

does anyone know if they will introduce any revisions this year? or just concentrate on the new V8 design?

Knowlesy · 1 Jun 2005, 10:55 (Ref:1316644)

They were set back by late rule changes I think.

dsg · 1 Jun 2005, 11:59 (Ref:1316716)

I believe they will continue to make improvments to the current engine however these will all be minor fixes because the main thrust is rightly on next years engine.

Valve Bounce · 1 Jun 2005, 12:09 (Ref:1316727)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nismo

After producing some of the best engines in recent years, it seems the power advantage they had during 2001-2003 has been lost. last year their engine was ok, this year it seem very weak compared to the opposition and they often run limited revs.

does anyone know if they will introduce any revisions this year? or just concentrate on the new V8 design?

You're right. You'd think that Williams would have come 1 and 2 last weekend, not just 2, and 2 and 3 the eek before . They've got to get their finger out a kick some ass.

MRJUCY · 1 Jun 2005, 13:09 (Ref:1316858)

I think they've definately lost there edge but in F1 you don't always need the best engine to be the quickest but it sure helps. I don't think Mclarens engines are the best but there car has been quickest at the last couple of races.

Glen · 1 Jun 2005, 13:34 (Ref:1316885)

Of course no one really knows where the engines are in relation to each other - any car that can run a bit less wing (ie is more efficient) will look quicker down the straights for example. It could be the case that the Williams this year is just not very slippery. On balance though it would seem that BMW have slipped from their highly regarded position as most powerful engine - I have read a comparisson of maximum rpm (a pretty good gauge of max bhp) that puts them down in about fifth place. Most likely they were wrong footed by the two race engine rule, and the primary method at their disposal to mangage longevity is to knock the rev limit down during the races. This is consistent with what the drivers have said.

Oh - and also it might be the case that the radically small sidepods of the FW27 make the car very tight on cooling. If the team's relationship with their engine supplier is less than perfect that kind of issue could be easy to fall in to, and very tricky to solve.

Kicking-back · 1 Jun 2005, 13:42 (Ref:1316892)

Maybe BMW should spend their efforts finding more power rather than criticising Williams cars

luke · 1 Jun 2005, 13:56 (Ref:1316906)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Maybe BMW should spend their efforts finding more power rather than criticising Williams cars

Much easier to criticise.

Nismo · 1 Jun 2005, 23:35 (Ref:1317523)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Maybe BMW should spend their efforts finding more power rather than criticising Williams cars

i agree, BMW have been knocking williams who have made huge improvements from the start of the season, but it doesnt appear BMW have made any gains on their engine. you hear about honda, cosworth etc introducing new powerfull revisions to their engines...BMW ? hhmmm??

Glen · 1 Jun 2005, 13:58 (Ref:1316908)

It is a bit rich, isn't it kb?

Kicking-back · 1 Jun 2005, 14:00 (Ref:1316912)

I think so.

This year in particular the Williams side of the package has been stronger than the BMW side - yet all we hear about is suggestions from Mario Thiessen that he'd rather pal-up with that midfield team from Switzerland.

Glen · 1 Jun 2005, 14:18 (Ref:1316934)

Next race is a proper engine circuit - they have been strong at Monaco (chassis) and Nurburgring (all-round, esp aero) so let's see if they can keep up the good work at a hard acceleration/hard braking circuit like Montreal. Judging by their poor showing at Imola (similar track in some ways) I am less than confident, but we shall see.

Mario Thiessen's attitude is hard to fathom - unless it is the "working together as one team" that he feels is holding them back... that situation might be improved if they had their own team, although every other dimension is likely to be more difficult.

**John Turner** · 1 Jun 2005, 15:02 (Ref:1316968)

I'm a big BMW fan but there is no doubt they have not only lost the lead they had in the power stakes but have, in fact, been overtaken. I agree with k-b that it is a bit out of order pointing the finger at Williams, when the latter is proving currently to be the better half of the package. Some one remarked in another thread that there is not much wrong with the handling package for the cars to have been so competitive at Monaco. Incidentally, I think Valve Bounce was being a touch sarcastic (post 4), and, if he was, he has a point!

BootsOntheSide · 1 Jun 2005, 15:47 (Ref:1317001)

Their strong performance at Monaco coupled with a weaker showing at Imola suggests that the engine isn't the strongest part of the car. It's strange that BMW have faded relative to the opposition so quickly, but does emphasise the point that when you stand still in F1 you go backwards.

Knowlesy · 1 Jun 2005, 16:17 (Ref:1317034)

I think BMW will be back on front running power next year. They were supposedly less prepared for the two-weekend engine ruling than anybody else and they had to scrap their 'proper' 2005 engine right at the death. I'm not saying this didn't happen to anybody else, but it does seem to have hurt BMW more for whatever reason.

Still, they have no right to criticise. I, for one, feel Williams are doing a fantastic job this year. They started tamely but you can see the improvements race-by-race. They are the most improved team from Melbourne onwards for sure.

I could understand BMW criticising Williams in 2002 or 2003 or even 2004 for not being up to scratch, due to the engines being very good, but not this year. The BMW engine, for once, is letting the side down.

TheNewBob · 1 Jun 2005, 18:30 (Ref:1317200)

BMW's attitude and their "ultimate driving machine" slogans etc. all point towards the unison of manufacturer and team, something which Williams are obviously not really wanting in on. It's maybe why BMW has more success when they are a proper works team (like '99 Le Mans and the WTCC squads).

Kicking-back · 1 Jun 2005, 19:02 (Ref:1317238)

The 1999 Le Mans car was built by....... Williams

TheNewBob · 1 Jun 2005, 19:05 (Ref:1317240)

I didn't actually know that! But you get my drift - it's been when BMW has entered under it's own name. Altho I interrupt my own attempted flow when I say it was a privateer squad which brought Priaulx the ETCC title!

I have a point I'm trying to make but I keep messing it up lol

Sodemo · 1 Jun 2005, 21:02 (Ref:1317374)

BMW were severely angered by the FIA's late ruling on the 2005 engine regs as it meant they had to scrap their design for the "super agressive" P86 and instead are using a heavliy modfied version of the 2004 powerplant.

But yes, BMW surprised everyone in 2001 when they brought out their P82 engine and it was a monster, reportedly having 60BHP more than some other works engines.
Ferrari were the first to catch up, when at Silverstone they ran their quali engine in the race which gave them a 30BHP increase, but was still down on the BMW.

Logrence · 1 Jun 2005, 21:47 (Ref:1317423)

There is a tense working environment under the Williams umbrella that must have a marked effect on the fruits of the Williams/BMW partnership.

Still, I think a lot of the issues with the current BMW 'plant stem from the fact that the current regs were rushed through when BMW had their planned engine for this year already on the dyno. The biggest problem for Williams is not that the BMW engine isn't so powerful, but more that BMW insist on blaming the problems on Williams!

Nismo · 1 Jun 2005, 23:40 (Ref:1317527)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logrence

There is a tense working environment under the Williams umbrella that must have a marked effect on the fruits of the Williams/BMW partnership.

Still, I think a lot of the issues with the current BMW 'plant stem from the fact that the current regs were rushed through when BMW had their planned engine for this year already on the dyno. The biggest problem for Williams is not that the BMW engine isn't so powerful, but more that BMW insist on blaming the problems on Williams!

There has been a downward slide since Sam Micheals took over as Tech Director, Head did a much better job, they need someone with experience in that position and sam micheal i feel is not up to that job. He may be good as doing what he did before but he is not in the league of Ross Brawn, Pat symonds etc...

mac · 2 Jun 2005, 01:12 (Ref:1317577)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nismo

There has been a downward slide since Sam Micheals took over as Tech Director, Head did a much better job, they need someone with experience in that position and sam micheal i feel is not up to that job. He may be good as doing what he did before but he is not in the league of Ross Brawn, Pat symonds etc...

I agree with pretty much everything in this thread except for this.

I happen to think Sam Michael is quite a good operator - if you are going to bag him for the start to the season, you must surely give him great credit for the team's turnaround.

Also, I have read that Williams is one of the few teams that persist with a six speed gearbox (as opposed to seven). If this is the case, it could also have an effect on acceleration and drive out of corners.

Rich R · 1 Jun 2005, 23:26 (Ref:1317513)

i don't think bmw have had a clear engine advantage since the end of 2003, especially with honda getting serious last season.
the williams/bmw relationship just isn't working the way i thought it would, after their performance in 01 i was expecting them to be fighting for titles the next season, 3 years later and they still haven't won any.
maybe the best thing for both parties in the long run would be to split, especially as the relationship between them has at times seemed acrimonous.

DKGandBH · 2 Jun 2005, 01:30 (Ref:1317587)

Didn't we go through this with <insert engine supplier>...

Why would you come down on your own product, when you can blame someone else ?

DKGandBH

Sodemo · 2 Jun 2005, 09:57 (Ref:1317812)

I thought Williams as of 2004 ran a 7 - speed?

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