World Wide Touring?

[KC]

With the BTCC returning to basically Group N rules for their series, and the DTM moving the opposite direction toward tube-framed, V8 powered machinery, and the Aussie's having two separate formulas in ex-BTCC style cars and larger V8 supercars, who has the best and most entertaining formula? I used to like to watch the original ultra-fast and F1 expensive DTM back in the 90s and hated to see them go, and the BTCC of the 90s produced some cvery close racing and I liked them as well. I have yet to see a V8 Supercar race here in the US but have seen several of the ATCC races from Lakeside and Bathurst.

Personally, I like the speed and aggressive nature of the new DTM cars. I also like the rules that prohibit engine changes and raising the costs of the series. It should make for some large fields of racers.

[marcus]

while I am biased..I think V8 supercar is the best formula..allthough DTM is quite good but i havent seen alot of it..the BTCC was quite good in its hey day but sadly it seems to be falling in a heap but hopefully it can get back to where it was..if you havent seen a V8 supercar race then I suggest if you ever get the chance to go for it..they are big, fast and spectacular to watch and even better in person especially if you can get up close to them...now the USA 2 litre series was one that interested me quite a bit but sadly that never took off either..but I guess its horses for courses..here in Oz and the states as well big V8 cars are what the public drive but in Europe and the like a V8 is totally impracticle so a small but nimble car is what most people prefer to drive therefore making super touring a succesfull class because the public can relate to it more.

[Crash Test]

KC: Australia really only has one main touring car class these days as the Super Tourers have all but died.

Pommy Touring Cars? Sounds kind of like a cheap form of racing, with at this stage a minimum of factory support. Meanwhile, the V8s have around 40 pro teams next season, with another 30 odd non-professional teams. I really think this is odd, because the motoring/motorsport industry in England is probably 10 fold that of the one here in Oz.

It seems that the DTM is big cash V8 Supercars. It would be interesting to see a back to back comparison, in a popularity sense between the two in the respective countries...

[hoffy]

Its hard to establish a clear winner as each series is market spacific (but the average person in Australia DOESNT drive a v8!!!!!!) and does a good job in keeping there particular supporters entertained.

But I would love to see a match race between v8 super cars and DTM.

[KC]

I am not sure if it would be even possible considering the various rules, but a meeting with V8 Supercars, DTM cars, and our only similar class, Trans Am, I think would be a good joint race. I know the DTM series has a better overall class of driver than our current Trans Am and I have no idea on the V8 Supercars, but I think it could be a good race.

[marcus]

hoffy where I am from alot of people drive V8's..i guess it is becoming more of a country thing rather than a city thing where a 4 or 6 cylinder car is great around traffic.

a race between the 3 would be great ..I would say DTM would win because they are alot more advanced than the other 2..but i dont know much about the tech specs but it would be entertaining to say the least.

one thing about Tranz am is a few of the American teams are supposedly coming out for the "race of 1000 years" at Adelaide and will run in a support class with our Australian sports sedans..now that should be a very interesting showdown..i have no idea who would win but it sounds like a great idea to me.

[redshoes]

marcus wrote :

Pommy Touring Cars? Sounds kind of like a cheap form of racing, with at this stage a minimum of factory support. Meanwhile, the V8s have around 40 pro teams next season, with another 30 odd non-professional teams. I really think this is odd, because the motoring/motorsport industry in England is probably 10 fold that of the one here in Oz.

You shouldn't take what's happening in the BTCC as necessarily indicative of the whole of UK motorsport industry. There's plenty of other GT, single seater and one-make championships to keep the pro teams in business. At last count there was something like 150+ separate race series - which some would argue way too many.

[Crash Test]

WRT a race between Tans Ams and V8 Supercars, i would have to say that the Yankees would win by a whisker. In the mid 90s several Trans Am cars raced against the local Sport Sedans under the Thundersports banner. Although the Trans Ams were a lower spec than what they are now, they were on most tracks better than the Sport Sedans. But then again in 5 years, the Sport Sedans have dropped a fair few seconds off their lap times, now to be about 2 seconds a lap quicker than a V8.

About the V8s: it may not be what the public as a whole drive, but the punters at the race meetings would be more likely to be driving a V8. Just like at a Super Touring meeting, there wouldn't be so many V8 "petrolhead/hoon" types, and more of the BMW driving champagne sipping type.

Redshoes, it was I who said that, and not Marcus
But really, the BTCC is the international face of national motorsport in the UK, if you get my drift. What we are seeing here in OZ is that the pommy TC side of things is in a downward slide, whilst the rest of the sport may be going up. The opposite can be said about the Australian industry, the V8s are on the up, while many of the other classes are feeling the pinch..

[DAVID PATERSON]

According to VFacts, V8s make up just 5% of all new car registrations, in fact Commodores and Falcons combined make up just 30% of new car sales, and that's what's wrong with V8 Supercars. The appeal is just too narrow.

Where they went wrong with promoting Super Touring in Australia is encouraging the idea that it's all about Euro luxury cars, BMW, Audi etc. They should have backed away from exclusivity and pushed the fact that ST is an open shop. Mondeo, Vectra, Camry, Nissan, Hyundai etc., popular and affordable cars that most Aussies can aspire to. The homogenisation of the rules by banning 4WD and then RWD was also another backward step. If all the cars have a similar spec/setup, sure the racing is close, but there's little passing.

[kmchow]

David Patterson wrote:

>Where they went wrong with promoting Super Touring in >Australia is encouraging the idea that it's all about Euro >luxury cars, BMW, Audi etc. They should have backed away >from exclusivity and pushed the fact that ST is an open >shop. Mondeo, Vectra, Camry, Nissan, Hyundai etc., popular >and affordable cars that most Aussies can aspire to.
>
I disagree. ST was open to all manufacturers, but it seems only the "luxury" manufaturers stepped up to the plate in Australia? Wasn't there a semi-Works Ford/Hyundai early in the series? Shouldn't you be instead blaming the "affordable" manufacturers (like Ford, Holden, Toyota and Nissan) for NOT supporting ST in Australia? BMW/Audi supported ST in Australia.

Since we're on this topic, I feel the Aussie expeience mirors our NA 100%!!! GM/Ford in NA would rather spend money on promoting Nascar(V8s) rather than ST!!

>The homogenisation of the rules by banning 4WD and then >RWD was also another backward step. If all the cars have a >similar spec/setup, sure the racing is close, but there's \
>little passing.
>
I agree. When you start to ban the founding(??) members of ST, it's no wonder the series is dying!

[redshoes]

Have to agree with David on this one. ST has always been about run-of-the-mill family saloons - "Hertz rental car racing" as Uncle Bernie used to call it.

You're right about one thing though km, the reason NATCC failed (and arguably the reason the Aus ST never properly took off) was that Ford and GM weren't interested. Not difficult to see why. In Nascar and Aussie V8 they've each got a roughly 50:50 chance of winning - if that changes they just adjust the rules. Had either company put money there was a real chance they'd get regularly beaten, which is not good PR.

[Speed Demon]

As a Brit who regularly attended BTCC races in the mid to late 90s, I have to say in many respects they disappointed me a little. At their height in 1995 they were spectacular enough, but as the aero packages improved, the racing diminished.

Have seen a fair amount of Group N racing on TV this year, and class B in BTCC. The cars don't look much more than lightly modified road cars, but the racing is superb. Good old panel-bashing stuff.

Vauxhall and Peugeot are the only signed up manufacturers so far, but they are putting in big squads run by top-class teams, with Ray Mallock-developed Rovers to come mid-season.

I'm looking forward to next year's Group N+ BTCC, as the cars are more modified and look a lot more aggressive yet should be just as raceable. I understand the Toyota's in Macau ran to these regulations. Anyone seen the race? What do you think?

[Airhead]

Up a few posts and:

David, this isn't about what people pay their hard earned, or in the case of Australia, the companies hard earned dollars to buy or lease in the new car market. It is about what they aspire to, or would like to drive if the lotto came in big time. Why in F1 are Ferarri so popular, I know one person only who owns one, the rest of us just salivate like Pavlov's dog. Of my friends, one has a XR8, one a Clubsport, the rest of us drive family hacks of various descriptions and age. The chosen few have motorcycles - praise the Lord.

The down side of this is that that Ford and Holden plus AVESCO and the Ten Network realise that they are selling a dream to the punters like you and I. Reality, as measured by sales figures for V8s has nothing to do with it.

But then I'm preaching to the converted aren't I David. 1600's for ever! My father had a hot one once.

Regards..

[Falcadore]

V8Supercar vs DTM2 on track will never happen because the V8Supercars would have their heads handed to them. DTM2 cars are have a little bit more power and are lighter. No real contest. And for it to ever happen V8Supercar would have to put more into it than DTM, who would be essentially uninterested in competing against the Ozzies cars. With little chance of success AVESCO could never be convinved to sell the idea. It would be like trying to convice TOCA to fund a V8Supercar vs Super Touring race.

Similarly the Trans-Am cars are that bit quicker than V8Supercar, it would be closer, but not close enough. Trans-Am vs Sports Sedan is more interesting as Sports Sedans are quicker in theory than Trans-Am but don't have the money that Trans-Am does.

Kai Man,
Just because the regs made allowances for everyday ccars to compete in the ASTC doesn't mean they did. The show here was always Audi vs BMW vs Volvo. Luxury cars. The Ford effort went nowhere after the death of Gregg Hansford. If he hadn't have died things might have been different for the racing Mondeo, but that's just as much a 'what if' as DTM2 vs V8Supercar. Audi vs BMW vs Volvo limited their marketting options quite a bit. The Foxtel Peugeot team didn't really help. There were rumours over the years about big teams from Ford, Holden, Honda and Nissan but they didn't eventuate. As for the Hyundai's? Despite the best efforts of Colin Bond and Jim Richards, they sucked. They never looked like not sucking. There was no 'everycar' association.

yours
Mark Jones

[Falcadore]

BTW

At different times, for different reasons FoMoCo and GMHA were interested in the ASTC. Ford put factory support behind RPM's two car Ford Mondeo attack in 1995 as a toe in the water exercise. After Gregg Hansford's death the team only had one car, a demoralised crew and a novice driver (Darren Palmer). Jeff Allam did his best but learning the track can't have helped. Jim Richards showed exactly why he should have been hired in the first place, but by the time he had joined the ASTC was over. Over the 3/4 off season race at Adelaide, Calder, Albert Park & Gold Coast, Jim turned the car into a race winner, but it was too late and Ford had pulleed out. Ahhh what might have been.

Holden got into the Vectra thing twice. First for Bathurst 1997, because they would have been kicking themselves if they didn't and Brockie won his last Bathurst. So Holden got behind the Warwick/Cleland Triple 8 operation once The Brock was on board. But that was an opportunistic one-off.

Second time around for Bathurst 98 had more potential. Holden were tied in to local production of the Holden Vectra, so promotional opportunities abounded. Russell Ingall and Greg Murphy hopped into the second Triple 8 Vectra, and showed Warwick and Cleland how for four days at Bathurst. Particularly Murphy. Friday was almost comical when Rydell set fast time late on Friday. TWR were happy, the Nissan wasn't going to get the time, and Triple 8? Not once all year had Triple 8 looked close to the TWR Volvo's. They were stunned when Greg Murphy thumped down provisional pole in the dying moments.

In the race Murph and the Enforcer kept pace with Rydell, Neal and the Richards family. But for an errant Pulsar/Sentra might it have been a three way fight to the finish? But it wasn't, so momentum was lost. That plus dreadful sales of the local Vectras ended prodcutin and any reason for Holden to get into ST.

yours
Mark Jones

[Airhead]

Arguing against myself,

There is the problem of personalities involved as well. No not mine although it seems by all accounts from others problematic enough. I for one would watch Allan Moffat make a return to racing in the lawnmower class. If all the guys that are happily punting V8 supercars were forced due to rule changes to run ST's I think the people would eventually follow.

Except for me, I'd be at the local lawn bowls club waiting for a guest appearance from the great man.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Moff, that would cost you six grand! The great man doesn't do guest appearances for free you know, unlike Pete Geoghegan, John French or Kevin Bartlett.

I think you're right though, if the top teams had gone 2 litre instead of 5 litre in the mid '90s, Super Touring would probably be very successful and popular now. Instead of relying on elephino and myself to double the crowd.

[kmchow]

I guess the death of ST could also be blamed on the manufacturers looking too much in the long term? I believe Ford didn't back a NATCC team b/c they were busy trying to make their Mondeos competitive in the BTCC and short lived French ST series(??)during the '96/'97 years. I doubt Honda would have built up a ST Accord when the car was reaching the end of it's life cycle. There were also rumors about Honda. The Toyota Camry came too late to save the NATCC! Sighh...

David wrote:

>I think you're right though, if the top teams had gone 2 >litre instead of 5 litre in the mid '90s, Super Touring >would probably be very successful and popular now.
>
Yeah, back in '96, it looked like ST could take over the entire motorsport world!! I recall there were something like over 15 ST (yeah, yeah, some were only 3-20+ ST car starting grids) championships. If only the top manfucturers got involved. I would have died just to see the new bodystyle Works Toyota Camrys dicing up with the semi-Works Accords and Works Dodge Stratus!!! Sighhh...

If only....

Thanks to Mark for bringing me up to date on ASTC history!

[Falcadore]

I imagine Larry Perkins would build a 5 litre V8 powered Commodore that would somehow comply to Super Touring regulations :P

Jonesy

[DAVID PATERSON]

LP reads the manual thoroughly and I'm sure he'd find a way to argue that it was legal, he's a determined bugger.