Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[Holt]

Roughly 13 months ago I suggested the ideas behind the Delta Wing come to sportscars

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....0&postcount=24

Now my wildest dream will come true

http://www.motorward.com/2011/06/del...-2012-le-mans/

This car will win top speed on the Mulsanne at just 325 HP

What do you think?

[the real Stig]

Car has rear wheel steering
Try driving backwards at speed and see how well that works.
Thrust SSC had rear wheel steering, but it didn't have to make the Arnarge corner.

Front of car
Has no room for front tunnel/ground effect generator.
Has no room for front suspension.

Rear of car
Very little package for tunnel(s).
Steering and power delivery to rear tires.

Power/engine
Can M-mike run a CoD study for 300hp and typical lemans speeds pls?
where are the cooling ducts? Radiators? Air intake?
Take a 300hp caterham and see if it can break 5minutes at lemans.

We'll not be seeing a car resembeling a lawn dart this time next year, I wager.

[Try Hard]

Originally Posted by the real Stig

Car has rear wheel steering
Try driving backwards at speed and see how well that works.
Thrust SSC had rear wheel steering, but it didn't have to make the Arnarge corner.

Front of car
Has no room for front tunnel/ground effect generator.
Has no room for front suspension.

Rear of car
Very little package for tunnel(s).
Steering and power delivery to rear tires.

Power/engine
Can M-mike run a CoD study for 300hp and typical lemans speeds pls?
where are the cooling ducts? Radiators? Air intake?
Take a 300hp caterham and see if it can break 5minutes at lemans.

We'll not be seeing a car resembeling a lawn dart this time next year, I wager.

You'll find the Deltawing does have front steering. I remember reading an article about how they had to be clever with the geometry to get enough lock (remember this was originally ment to be an indycar, for both oval and road course). Indeed, look at the video http://deltawingracing.com/2010/02/simulation-videos-2/

However, I do agree about the front aero... will they generate enough downforce with the underbody tunnels (again look at the rear view of the indycar proposal... big tunnels!) to negate the need for front wing?

[RichardRenes]

I see a bigger problem: look at the width of those front wheels... combined they are about 1/3rd of the width of the frontwheels of other prototype cars! And less width=smaller contact patch with tarmac=less grip. No way they can steer this car through the various chicanes in anger. And I doubt as to wether the increased downforce the body of the car generates can make up for this.

[Holt]

Originally Posted by RichardRenes

I see a bigger problem: look at the width of those front wheels... combined they are about 1/3rd of the width of the frontwheels of other prototype cars! And less width=smaller contact patch with tarmac=less grip. No way they can steer this car through the various chicanes in anger. And I doubt as to wether the increased downforce the body of the car generates can make up for this.

Motorcycles have little contact patch on the front tire but they corner well.

Side cars single front tire doesnt have a large contact patch and it corners well.

It weighs 880 lbs compared to a 908 or R18 weighing 2000 lbs so that will help it corner.

I think it running LMP2 lap times is not out of the question

And if they give it a 60 liter tank it could go 16+ laps at the estimated 12mpg!

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by Holt

Motorcycles have little contact patch on the front tire but they corner well.

Just like to point out that bikes can turn sharper than cars, but are not as quick through larger turns such as Porsche curves. Most if not all bike v supercar battles shows the bike being dusted in the turns.

On topic: If this is the future of sports car racing, no thank you. I'll take my money elsewhere. As for simulation videos, how much can I pay someone to make my Jeep do a 3:22 lap at la sarthe?

As for weight, why do we need the genital shape for that weight? I find it hard to believe that manufacturers wouldn't be able to design p1 cars several hundred pounds lighter than they are now if it meant a smaller car overall.

[the real Stig]

Originally Posted by Try Hard

You'll find the Deltawing does have front steering. I remember reading an article about how they had to be clever with the geometry to get enough lock (remember this was originally ment to be an indycar, for both oval and road course). Indeed, look at the video http://deltawingracing.com/2010/02/simulation-videos-2/

originally delta wing only had 3 wheels the from being a single non-steering fat tire, this was then changed to twin front tires to gain more credibility. It's was originally designed as rear steering which is one of the reasons why one of the engine designers in the league distanced it's self from the project. (I'm very close to Indy car racing & lemans design and this is what I know).

So may be to gain more credibility they've switched to front steer, only I'm guessing if they have they've not figured out how to do it yet. The under model has no cut outs for steering movement and even if it did I can't imagine how you package a pair of wishbones, springs, dampers and a rack is such a narrow package. I can't see the packaging it especially considering the lock required to negotiate chicanes and Arnarge.

The closest thing to delta wing I can think of is the Honda F1 land speed car.
Really light, no wings but big power.

I'm thinking this project is like Delorian, tax payers beware. (government funding for green energy research)

[Try Hard]

Originally Posted by the real Stig

originally delta wing only had 3 wheels the from being a single non-steering fat tire, this was then changed to twin front tires to gain more credibility. It's was originally designed as rear steering which is one of the reasons why one of the engine designers in the league distanced it's self from the project. (I'm very close to Indy car racing & lemans design and this is what I know).

So may be to gain more credibility they've switched to front steer, only I'm guessing if they have they've not figured out how to do it yet. The under model has no cut outs for steering movement and even if it did I can't imagine how you package a pair of wishbones, springs, dampers and a rack is such a narrow package. I can't see the packaging it especially considering the lock required to negotiate chicanes and Arnarge.

The closest thing to delta wing I can think of is the Honda F1 land speed car.
Really light, no wings but big power.

I'm thinking this project is like Delorian, tax payers beware. (government funding for green energy research)

Did you actually bother to watch the video/read the information on the car? Second video down on the link I posted... plenty of lock there!

Gordon Kirby wrote a good, balanced article about the DeltaWing (with views from both the guys involved with DW, and John Barnard), and the front suspension is described in there, steering included. It's simply dual wishbones, with directly attached upright shocks. Pretty simple really.

(picture taken from the Kirby article)

You keep citting the mock-ups as not having cut-outs for steering, as far as I'm aware they don't have engines either, so take those with a pinch of salt!

The original IRL proposal DID have front steering/two wheels (the Kirby article was written before the LM car came out), and as far as I'm aware, thats the way the LM car is done. I think you want to check your sources on that front, and check out that article!

Anyway, is the car right for LM? I'm currently un-decided, it's good to see something different, but will is it what we want for the future of the race?
IMO, as an IRL car, the concept worked, but for LM, I'm not so sure.

[protopuma]

Originally Posted by the real Stig

Power/engine
Can M-mike run a CoD study for 300hp and typical lemans speeds pls?
where are the cooling ducts? Radiators? Air intake?
Take a 300hp caterham and see if it can break 5minutes at lemans.

We'll not be seeing a car resembeling a lawn dart this time next year, I wager.

DeltaWing on there website state a Cd of 0.24. For what it is worth wiki has a .7 Cd for Caterham. Also based on Mikes work current closed top LMP1s have a Cd of some were in the low to mid 0.4s for Le Mans.

[Flyin Ryan]

If they run the engine at Le Mans they were planning to in Indycars they'll run out of horsepower on the Mulsanne I'd reckon.

[WolfsburgRS]

I think safety could be an issue. If a Delta wing center-punched a car like the #1 R18 did on Wednesday it could end up with some very unfortunate results.

It's also pretty unattractive, and you can't discount looks and mass appeal of any car. I a pretty positive, glass is half-full person when it comes to motor racing, but this thing is just....wrong.

Rather than trying to re-invent the proverbial wheel, why not re-legalize ground effect tunnels for Prototypes, and limit the more drag-inducing external aero elements? You get better efficiency, better looks, and don't have to worry about all the stuff like fitting in a pit lane designed for normal cars, garages designed for normal cars, safety for other competitors, marshals, etc.

Someone else mentioned this on the Midweek Motorsport forum, but the fact that the Mulsanne is fairly rutted, and the two rear wheels will be riding in the ruts and the front wheels on the crest of the road will promote a very unstable condition.

[picchiofan]

Some early prototype testing in Britain..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSaIv_5-Mho

[Gingers4Justice]

Oh yes, I'm sure the designers at Delta Wing have completely forgotten that Le Mans has corners, back to the drawing board for them I guess

Seriously guys, come on, why would they design a car that they think can't turn a sharp bend?

[Racenut]

I want to see how many rear corners are removed by clipping inside walls.. with the front being so much narrower than the rear I expect the drivers to misjudge where the back end is....

[Fogelhund]

My question is why? What does this achieve?

My contempt is the money being spent by various groups of Americans, including the ALMS principle, when the money could be spent on a REAL entry, that could run LM and support the ALMS.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

My contempt is the money being spent by various groups of Americans, including the ALMS principle, when the money could be spent on a REAL entry, that could run LM and support the ALMS.

Are you sure that Don is paying something for this and not getting paid?

As for the Sausagemobile, well, it's an interesting concept. Low weight, low drag, low horsepower. Ok, that's about all the positive things I have to say about this thing. The 56th car "reserves" are a lot more interesting technologically (although they perhaps may not be as fast) and I'm sure they will look a lot better. I don't usually wish failure upon racing teams, but let's hope this thing never hits the track. It's hideous and I also wonder about the safety of this thing.

[WolfsburgRS]

I wonder who in the motorsport community will be the first to mention that the emperor is wearing no clothes? I can't imagine the paddock is full of enthusiasm for this thing.

[Gingers4Justice]

Tell you what I'm fed up with in motorsport, is leaders of bizarre projects such as these who tell us what they think the fans want.

The Delta Wing crew clearly have no idea what we're after.

I want racing cars that look like racing cars and sound like racing cars. They could run on nail clippings for all I care - so long as the sound is there. That's what most of us want.

This looks like something which might go for the land speed record, not victory at Le Mans. It's ridiculous.

Endurance racing will lose a lot of its true fans very quickly if cars begin to look like this.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Tell you what I'm fed up with in motorsport, is leaders of bizarre projects such as these who tell us what they think the fans want.

The Delta Wing crew clearly have no idea what we're after.

I want racing cars that look like racing cars and sound like racing cars. They could run on nail clippings for all I care - so long as the sound is there. That's what most of us want.

This looks like something which might go for the land speed record, not victory at Le Mans. It's ridiculous.

Endurance racing will lose a lot of its true fans very quickly if cars begin to look like this.

Some say that racing can make alternative technologies "cool." Well, few people in or out of racing are going to think this thing is cool. This design was considered too ugly for the IRL. Think about that for a second. Too ugly for the IRL!

I'm not a complete stickler for aesthetic racing cars. I'm ok with some unattractive elements of cars if they are there to improve performance. That is the name of the game after all. This thing, however, is the answer to a question that nobody asked.

EDIT: Remember, this thing very well may take the spot of a potential class winning GTE car or a decent LMP. Ugh.

[kingkai]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Tell you what I'm fed up with in motorsport, is leaders of bizarre projects such as these who tell us what they think the fans want.

The Delta Wing crew clearly have no idea what we're after.

I want racing cars that look like racing cars and sound like racing cars. They could run on nail clippings for all I care - so long as the sound is there. That's what most of us want.

This looks like something which might go for the land speed record, not victory at Le Mans. It's ridiculous.

Endurance racing will lose a lot of its true fans very quickly if cars begin to look like this.

Indeed, they should look! and sound! like sportcars or sportcar prototype as the LMP now! not some child fetish racing where you make the sounds yourself with futuristic designs..

[kingkai]

What the hell is this project about. In my opinion this car has no place at LM! And shouldn't the prototypes look rectangular from above and with the front wheels being in the same place as the rear wheels?... Thought that was one of the design rules for LMP?...
No this just look like one of those kiddy racers which should be left as miniatures to play with...
This car doesn't fit in sportscar racing in my eyes.

[lms]

Originally Posted by kingkai

What the hell is this project about. In my opinion this car has no place at LM! And shouldn't the prototypes look rectangular from above and with the front wheels being in the same place as the rear wheels?... Thought that was one of the design rules for LMP?...
No this just look like one of those kiddy racers which should be left as miniatures to play with...
This car doesn't fit in sportscar racing in my eyes.

you are exactly right. Not to mention that there are supposed to be two seats in lmps, even in coupes. That seems to be a tradition. On the other hand, no one said that this thing is an lmp car.

[gwyllion]

@Ratliff: What is the use in going the 800+ posts in this discussion and replying "Your assumptions are incorrect." on half of them?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I am sure that many non-believers are now realized that the car does work, at least in testing.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Ratliff

Uh, because now that the car has demonstrated it works so many self-styled "experts" have proven they were just pontificating punters?

You do realize that those posts were made 9 months ago and opinions can change massively within 9 months, right?

[Tim Northcutt]

Take a chill pill, Ratliff...52 posts that basically say "all of you are wrong" is boorish...lighten up.

Mod hat off...

The reality is, the thing went through a shakedown at Buttonwillow, drove a few demonstration laps for the Sebring crowd and has been testing there this week with no word on any issues ( other than an alleged broken drive shaft), gremlins or whether the thing can really corner without a lot of understeer at racing speeds as opposed to demonstration lap pace.

Even at those non-race pace speeds the videos indicate the DW had a lot of understeer...you can tell by the way the driver's hands are working the steering wheel.

Let's see what it does under strenuous race conditions when it is on the track with other competitors.