BTCC cars getting faster...or not?

[ATF]

I noticed that the Brands Indy lap record is still held by Muller from 2001. I don't know if it's just me but I would have expected times to have progressed since them. I checked out the rest of the lap records (thanks to BTCC Racing) and came up with the following...

Brands Indy (2001-2005)
2001 - Yvan MULLER - Vauxhall Astra Coupe - Vauxhall Motorsport - 49.226

Brands GP (2002, 2005)
2005 - Rob COLLARD - MG ZS - West Surrey Racing - 1:33.148

Croft (2001-2005)
2002 - James THOMPSON - Vauxhall Astra Coupe - Vauxhall Motorsport - 1:25.749

Donington National (2003-2005)
2005 - Yvan MULLER - Vauxhall Astra Sport Hatch - VX Racing - 1:12.889

Donington GP (2001-2002)
2002 - James THOMPSON - Vauxhall Astra Coupe - Vauxhall Motorsport - 1:41.211

Knockhill (2001-2002, 2004-2005)
2004 - Colin TURKINGTON - MG ZS - West Surrey Racing - 54.845

Mondello (2001-2005)
2005 - Yvan MULLER - Vauxhall Astra Sport Hatch - VX Racing - 1:46.510

Oulton Island (2001-2005)
2002 - Matt NEAL - Vauxhall Astra Coupe - Egg Sport - 1:27.595

Silverstone International (2001-2004)
2002 - James Thompson - Vauxhall Astra Coupe - Vauxhall Motorsport - 1:28.324

Snetterton (2001-2005)
2005 - Matt NEAL - Honda Integra - Team Halfords - 1:12.249

Thruxton (2001-2005)
2002 - Yvan MULLER - Vauxhall Astra Coupe - Vauxhall Motorsport - 1:17.303

N.B - the Silverstone National and Rockingham lap records are irrelevant as they have only been used in 1 year (since 2001).

Looking at the results, they are quite inconsistent with no real patterns - you would expect the laptimes to decrease, otherwise in theory, Mullers 2001 Astra would still be competitive today?! Why is this the case?

[Neil Adams]

its cool to see people using my site,

these are the fastest race lap times rather than free practice or qualifying etc..

i think the main reasons the car where faster back in 01, 02 was that there wasnt penaultys back then for engine changes and teams would push the bhp, rev limits etc to the limit without worrying about losing points should the engine pop

the one fastest lap that stands out for me is matt neals 2002 oulton lap record, its 7 tenths quicker than any other fastest lap! and 1.3 seconds quicker than last years fastest race lap, just found some pics - i think that this extra pace may have been found by the tyre bundles at the knickerbrook / hizzys chicane not being as substantial as the 'blocks' they've used in the last few years

[ATF]

Originally Posted by Neil Adams

its cool to see people using my site,

these are the fastest race lap times rather than free practice or qualifying etc..

i think the main reasons the car where faster back in 01, 02 was that there wasnt penaultys back then for engine changes and teams would push the bhp, rev limits etc to the limit without worrying about losing points should the engine pop

To be honest, your site was the easiest to find this data (going through the circuits rather than the results section) - I struggled on some others!

Correct me if I'm wrong but there were engine penalties in 2002, and for drivers as well as teams!

[ATF]

Originally Posted by ATF

To be honest, your site was the easiest to find this data (going through the circuits rather than the results section) - I struggled on some others!

Just in case anyone is interested, the new official site has got quite a good section on circuits, with previous winners, lap records (for race AND qualifying) and memories of previous events.

Your site still kicks ass though, Neil! (And it's not green!)

[Alfa Fan]

Remember some of these tracks may have been reprofiled slightly. Oulton Park for example - the Knickerbrook chicane been significantly altered.

[Craig]

Yes, definately penalties back in 2002 - remember poor Hyla Breese?!

[Alfa Fan]

Originally Posted by Craig

Yes, definately penalties back in 2002 - remember poor Hyla Breese?!

-16 points for the season I believe :lol:

He's the only driver in the history of the sport to end his career on a negative points total (I'm presuming he won't be back)

[kristof14]

Originally Posted by Alfa Fan

-16 points for the season I believe :lol:

He's the only driver in the history of the sport to end his career on a negative points total (I'm presuming he won't be back)

Turns out he's now a commercial helicopter pilot in the US!

[ATF]

Originally Posted by kristof14

Turns out he's now a commercial helicopter pilot in the US!

How random is that?!

They should make a TV programme - "Where are they now?" - for ex-BTCC drivers. Would make good viewing!

[redshoes]

In a series with fairly static technical regs I wouldn't necessarily expect lap records to get broken every year. There's a lot of factors to consider - tyre compound, weather conditions, weight limits (inc success ballast).

How have the times compared for subsequent years? Takes Brands Indy for example, was Muller's time that much quicker or have times since then been within a few tenths?

[ATF]

Originally Posted by redshoes

How have the times compared for subsequent years? Takes Brands Indy for example, was Muller's time that much quicker or have times since then been within a few tenths?

I've done some deeper digging:

2001 (Rd 2) - Muller, Astra Coupe - 49.226
2001 (Rd 25) - Muller, Astra Coupe - 49.840

2002 (Rd 18)- Priaulx, Civic - 49.241
Other Brands meeting = GP circuit

2003 (Rd 15) - W. Hughes, ZS - 49.854
2003 (Rd 4) - Thompson, Astra Coupe - 49.639

2004 (Rds 5) - Watson Smith, Impian - 49.648
2004 (Rd 22) - Neal, Civic - 49.840

2005 (Rd 9) - Chilton, Civic - 49.805
Other Brands meeting = GP circuit

Always in the 49s, never as low as 2001/2002 though...

[touringlegend]

Weren't the weight limit's tweaked when SEAT entered as well ? (more weight I think..)

Of course there's still 3 years before that of competition.

Expect the Knockhill lap time to tumble this year as the track has been resurfaced and the entry to Duffus is much wider and faster.

At yesterday's wet meeting some of the XR2 car's were going faster in the wet than in the dry last year!

[Sodemo]

I always wished that the BTCC / WTCC cars had slightly more power and maybe slightly wider tyres, to make them faster in corners and straight line speed.

If they had 2.2 litre engines and had tyres that were say 20 - 30mm wider, they would be awesome to watch.

The cars to me, always look a bit pedestrian compared to the old super tourers and todays DTM.

PS oh and had louder exhausts too.

Oh by the way, when it the DTM coming to Britain

[ATF]

Fastest DTM time from last weeks test was 41.587 - don't quite think they're going to beat that time in the BTCC!

[cos]

I'm sure I could lap Brands Indy in less than 40s in ToCA 2...

[JAG]

To be honest you can't really take the DTM seriously as a touring car series.

It's a heavily subsidised ego trip for Mercedes, almost certain to collapse in the next year or two.

The cars have more resemblence (under the skin) to a Le Mans prototype.

The BTCC/WTCC however do need to inject a little oomphh into their cars.

Fit restricted 2.5l 4/6cylinder motors (320-350bhp), an inch or two bigger wheels, and they would be spectacular.

Spiritual successors to the Group A M3's/190's form the DTM.

[ATF]

Just for reference, the fastest time from todays test was 49.371 by Neal! Still not below the 2001 record, it's hard to see it being broken next weekend!

But I also thought of another factor - pit stops! How much would that affect race pace, given that the tyres need to last longer?

[Alfa Fan]

They shortened the races at the same time though.

The Dunlop compound they run on is a slower tyre than the BF Goodrich that preceeded it - harder compound.

But what it lacks in speed, it makes up for in consistancy.

I believe rear-wheel drive cars (such as the BMWs and Lexus) are penalised by the increased hardness of the compound, as it takes them longer to get the tyres up to tempreature.

Will be interesting to see how Martyn Bell's BMW does this year.

[ATF]

He said not to expect too much until they get to Oulton, which he thinks will suit the car more.

[ATF]

Brands Indy (2001-2006)
2006 - Tom CHILTON - Vauxhall Astra Sport Hatch - VX racing - 49.190

Croft (2001-2005)
2002 - James THOMPSON - Vauxhall Astra Coupe - Vauxhall Motorsport - 1:25.749

Donington National (2003-2005)
2005 - Yvan MULLER - Vauxhall Astra Sport Hatch - VX Racing - 1:12.889

Knockhill (2001-2002, 2004-2005)
2004 - Colin TURKINGTON - MG ZS - West Surrey Racing - 54.845

Mondello (2001-2005)
2005 - Yvan MULLER - Vauxhall Astra Sport Hatch - VX Racing - 1:46.510

Oulton Island (2001-2005)
2002 - Matt NEAL - Vauxhall Astra Coupe - Egg Sport - 1:27.595

Silverstone National (2005)
2005 - Jason PLATO - Seat Toledo Cupra R - Seat Sport UK - 1:00.927

Snetterton (2001-2005)
2005 - Matt NEAL - Honda Integra - Team Halfords - 1:12.249

Thruxton (2001-2005)
2002 - Yvan MULLER - Vauxhall Astra Coupe - Vauxhall Motorsport - 1:17.303


How many more will be broken this year?

[touringlegend]

Interesting to note when Chilton set that time in Race 1 Turkington also broked Muller's record with a 49.201 lap.

[TomS]

How much have those MG's been developed over the years? I mean Seat have a brand new car..and Vauxhall a year old car yet the older MG is still almost a match yet is that much older?