Too many starter formulas?

[Don Rennis]

Formula Ford, Formula Renault and now Formula BMW. I fear we have gone a formula too far. The British motorsporting body needs to get a grip on itself before it allows the premier starter formulas to water themselves down to a point where they are just play things for rich kids.

Formula Ford always prided itself on being the cheap(ish) training ground for highlighting talent. We are now in danger of destroying it as an important feeder formula in the name of increased profile and professionalism. Bunkum!

What say you?

[Super Tourer]

To put this into financial terms, to attract a 20 car grid per series (60 cars in total) we are looking at a total sponsorship requirement, of probably £7M....

If we wanted to more or less fill each series - say 30 cars FFord, 25 cars F Ren and 25 cars FBMW, probably nearer £9M.

It remains to be seen how achievable this is, but it will take around 80 drivers with at least 100K each to spend.

[spearce]

I agree too many formulae, but neither Zetec or Renault are really for 'starters', the majority of runners have one (or more) years of racing in other cars under their belt - in Zip, FF1600, Honda, etc.

[jonathanc]

Agree with DR. In performance terms F-BMW should be down with FF1600 and FHonda, but due to the cost it looks like its been bumped up. Does a junior formula actually need and F1 carbon spec chassis? Dont think so...

Silly thing is, drivers will be paying 100k to run around in an F-BMW when they could spend 30k (own the car + years racing) on FHonda and go alot quicker (especially in the 1000cc class) and probably learn more.

Ho hum, obviously too much money out there to burn, literally.

[Stephen Green]

The problem is that FBMW is on the TOCA package which does give it some extra coverage over the likes of F Honda. I'm not saying that's right, but it might explain why some are moving to that rather than some of the cheaper ones.

[Mackmot]

How is a FBMW in 'performance terms' less than Zetec. It has the same power as a Zetec, less weight than a Zetec, more grip than a Zetec. The car is basically a carbon Mygale FF with a BMW engine and F3 gearbox. The time will be about half way between Zetec and Renault. Its also better quality than Renault and does not break easily.


I also think that people who do not like this formula are those who cannot afford to do it. If you cant afford to do BMW how will you be able to afford F3, F3000 and F1.

My arguement against BMW is that FFord is still better to teach drivers but only if you have the money. You still need to be able to afford to drive for the best teams who will teach you to drive, and use the best equipment (ie good data) and have an up to date, fully developed car so that you can learn to win. When you take all that into account it is FF is the same if not more expensive than BMW.

[Super Tourer]

FBMW has the cache, will be slickly presented and has the quality feel to it.

I think the real issue is the progression from here. In terms of relative costs, there is not a great deal between FFord,F Ren and FBMW - you might have to find another £20K to £30K to progress from a top line FFord to F Ren.

Unless you are backed by a major investor/sponsor, it's the step up from here that is expensive, and the step beyond F3 almost impossible.

Obviously it's meant to be harder as it gets higher up the ladder, but when series champions spend the following season kicking their heels - you have to say the system is not working somewhere.

There have been several debates on the F1 forum overd rivers buying seats (Klien v Wilson etc) and the comparison made with football, whereby you couldn't 'buy' a place in Man Utd's team. Conversley, if it was felt you were good enough to line up for the team, they wouldn't expect you to pay either....

This is where motor 'sport' always fall's down.

[jonathanc]

Agree with above, and IMHO it has become a 'money buys everything sport' where many drivers are only where they are today because of cash and not necessarily talent. Of course ther are definite exceptions to this, but I would say they were in the minority.

Shame really. Im more than happy doing club level and not going any further as Im in it for the fun, but it must be a real headbanger for the younger drivers who may have the magic touch, but cannot afford to nurture it into a professional occupation.

Unfortunately, companies cannot see the advantages to them of sponsorship, so there is a continuing decline it that area too. All this adds up to sorry state.

Im amazed just how much money is out there.....

[bella]

in reality, fbmw will take maybe 2 years to get a steady grid size. it does have a niche, but it doesn't have the low price originally promised. it works out to be just less than a season in renault, and about the same as a top team season in ford.

there are too many lower formulae but this ladder thing has gone some way to at least putting them in a fair structure, and that makes sense.

i think there is room in the market for at least renault and bmw. ford, i think, has had it's time. it's a pity but the entire market for motorsport has changed, and it's part of the 'old' scene.

there is loads of money out there, there's a lot of people with that sort of profit margins on their companies to invest in their children. seems to be quite a few kids who help find their own money for the basic season, then dad foots the bills for the damage. only for someone in renault last year that was about £40,000...

i think i've said this before but the fact is, if a driver can't raise a basic fund to do formula ford then they're not going to have the right sort of... character to make a career out of racing. you need to be a businessman, and have at least a small brain. without that, you'll be living off daddy's back until he retires and can't put the money up anymore, or you'll be going around with 'cash-strapped' said before your name before your driving comes into the equation.

[73_Gstock]

Over in the US we have Fran Am, FF2000, Star Mazda, and FBMW (next year), as well as Toyota Atlantic (? on if CART/OWRS stays around), and thats just counting the professional ranks.

SCCA has many more amatuer classes of open wheelers, both as National and Regional status.

[jonathanc]

Sorry Bella I disagree,
There has been a successful ladder for years, but somehow the latest fumblings have gone to pot.

Also business brain has got nothing to do with raising the money. Pure luck or daddy's old chums from charterhouse seems to be the norm. Are you trying to tell us that there are lots of 18 year olds with the business brain of Richard Branson out there? (me thinks not). As for character, the sport is well known for its uncharismatic sorts, especially when it comes to drivers. I cant really see DH charming the pants off the CEO of Hewlett Packard (female for those that werent sure).

Ive already been down the pub today, starting to think I should have stayed there

Huf huf huf, rant rant rant.

[Paul Rayner]

What difference does this new MSA ladder really make? I mean, in reality everyone in the sport has always known which formulas are above which - FZip>FFord>FRenault>F3, so what difference does it make if there's an "official" ladder? The champion of one series isn't assured of a drive in the next level, so what does it actually do to improve things?

Ooh. 1000th ten-tenths post.

[jonathanc]

IMHO, it should be:

Various SS Championship (drivers choice) -> FRenault -> F3 etc.

Its the bottom rung with FFord, Zip etc that is the problem. They are all too close together in terms of performance but miles apart in terms of cost. It seems to be whoever stumps up the 100k deposit with the MSA first wins (again in IMHO).

[DSM]

I think you're way off Bella, with respect. I agree with Jonathan.
I've said this before more than once: Name me ONE driver who is racing at the level we are talking about as part of a genuine, commercial, marketing/sponsorship programme, involving businesses where the driver and/or his family/friends of family do not have an interest.

[bella]

next year, darwin smith.

[bella]

and you don't need a brilliant business brain, you just need to be good at bull****, and have a vague idea what a company could benefit from.

in quite a few cases, daddy hands over his contact book, and son goes off and extracts the money. you still have to be able to argue that the company should give their money, it's not just straight forward 'my daddy knows you, give me your profits'.

raising your own money is the only way of getting into motorsport if you're not blessed with an overly rich daddy. and there are people who are good at this and there are people who are not so good at this.

[Russfeld]

I think the problem is Formula Ford and Formula BMW are fighting for the same spot on the ladder, and its not like Formula Ford is oversubscribed.

One of the smarter racing decisions ive seen was to create the F3 Euroseries by combinging the French and German championships. Practicality before profit.

[racingdad]

Originally posted by DSM
I think you're way off Bella, with respect. I agree with Jonathan.
I've said this before more than once: Name me ONE driver who is racing at the level we are talking about as part of a genuine, commercial, marketing/sponsorship programme, involving businesses where the driver and/or his family/friends of family do not have an interest.

I'll name one -Former single seater racer, 2002 / 2003 Clio Cup racer, 2004 Seat Cupra Cup racer - Oli Wilkinson. Racing purely on the basis of a genuine sponsorship programme - family input? about the same as it was when he was in Pro-Karts! And I should know as I am one of his sponsors (a very minor one) - 2003 paid for by a sponsor with no family or friend connection, Omnetica - he found them himself after doing a bit of Web Design for them, made a marketing presentation to the board, and secured funding. He has worked hard all year, doing marketing related activity as well as on-track hospita;lity and track days, etc. It can be done, but it isn't easy

[jonathanc]

Originally posted by Russfeld
I think the problem is Formula Ford and Formula BMW are fighting for the same spot on the ladder, and its not like Formula Ford is oversubscribed.

One of the smarter racing decisions ive seen was to create the F3 Euroseries by combinging the French and German championships. Practicality before profit.

[bella]

ford and bmw are two different products though. bmw gives everyone equal rights, whereas ford largely depends on engineers and figuring out a setup...

i think the lot of you take what i say too literally. and a lot of you need to put your own experiences aside and think of the actual situation and what's going on in reality rather than what happened to you a few years ago.

[Mackmot]

what is the successful ladder of many years. We have had alsorts, FF1600, FFZetec, FF2000, FVJ, FVL, FR 1700, FR2000, FRSport all have been about the same level. Now BMW coma along and no one likes it.
BMW is appealing to the best type of driver, one who can afford it. Not these ones who whinge when they cannot do it. If you cannot afford to race you either do something about it or just stick to fun racing.

[racingdad]

Originally posted by jonathanc
Agree with above, and IMHO it has become a 'money buys everything sport' where many drivers are only where they are today because of cash and not necessarily talent. Of course ther are definite exceptions to this, but I would say they were in the minority.

Whilst I'm on my soapbox - I hate to tell you this, but motor racing has always been a rich man's sport and because of the start-up costs it probably always will be. When FFord was launched it was billed as the "£1000 formula" - and in truth the car (with VW gearbox, untuned engine, wrong tyres and wheeels, etc., did cost about £1000 (equal to about £10,000 today). A season, however, having bought the hewland, had the engine blue printed, invested in wheels and tyres and suffered a bit of damage came to about £10,000 - say £100,000 in today's money - spot a similarity here?

[Russfeld]

I dont have a problem with BMW on its own, from what you've said it looks like it could be a better series than Fords, but im worried about too many seats and not enough funding. Adding a new series when there isnt a crushing demand for it will only further dilute Fords and maybe even some of the Renault guys.

Two series could work, but not 3.

Then again im one of those idiots that thinks F3 and BTCC should run together and do away with GTs

[Mackmot]

Its daft that in Germany there are 4 championships with full grids. Maybe we just need to realise that UK is also not the best place for motorsport anymore

[Russfeld]

Renaults, BMWs, and?

Germany seems more condusive to sponsorship, likewise Italy. No coincidence both countries have some of the highest F1 TV figures, several times larger than the UK