F3 Cup 2020 dates

[andrewc]

4/5 April – Donington Park National
30/31 May – Brands Hatch GP
20/21 June – Silverstone National
27 June – Oulton Park
11/12 July – Snetterton 300
12/13 September – Donington Park GP
3/4 October – Snetterton 300

Not as good a calendar as previous years unless you like Donington and Snetterton, and one week gap between Silverstone and Oulton Park isn't a terribly sensible idea - unload truck on Monday, pack truck on Thursday.

[bella]

it's a shame they can't take it to anglesey or pembrey instead of running so many rounds at their own circuits. gt cup had the same thing last year - out of 7 events, 3 were at snetterton. can't be very inspiring for competitors.

[andrewc]

They took F3 Cup to Anglesey twice in the past and got grids half their usual size, so they decided not to go back. I don't think Pembrey is perceived as being up-market enough.

[Willmaz223]

Originally Posted by bella

it's a shame they can't take it to anglesey or pembrey instead of running so many rounds at their own circuits. gt cup had the same thing last year - out of 7 events, 3 were at snetterton. can't be very inspiring for competitors.

Yes but where else are the meant to go. Same with British GT going to Donington twice. The UK doesn't have enough tracks that are big enough or wide enough to host GT3 or F3 cars.

[andrewc]

F3's would be fine at Thruxton, Castle Combe, Mallory, Anglesey and Pembrey if variety was desired.

- Thruxton has limited dates,
- Combe is snitty about noise, but all cars are within 108db static
- They would get dizzy at Mallory doing 40s laps.
- distance puts people off Anglesey and Pembrey, especially for a one-dayer

Cadwell paddock and mountain may cause problems with low ride height cars.

They are not adverse to an overseas round, could link up with the Leinster Trophy at Mondello, or return to Zolder / Spa or go to Zandvoort.

[GCCheddaris]

One circuit which always seems to be bypassed these days is Thruxton . Living in the southwest it's very frustrating to see championship after championship producing a calendar based largely in the Midlands apart from a visit to Brands .

I've seen some wonderful single seater racing over the years at Thruxton , not just Formula Three but Formulas 1 , 2 , 3000 , 5000 etc . I was hoping the BRSCC meeting might see the National Formula Ford championship pay a visit but no , its Caterhams , BMWs and TCRs only .

Okay so the last visit of the GTs was chaotic due the narrow pit lane ( it certainly mixed the order up ! ) so have separate races for Pros and Ams without pit stops . Thruxton is a great circuit which would allow the GTs to be used to their full potential .

Is the problem that Thruxton is too far off the beaten track ? Surely not as it's not far from either the M3 or M4 with the A303 running straight past the circuit . Sadly the only single seater races I can see being held this year at Thruxton are the Formula 4 races at the BTCC meeting .

With the Classic Formula Fords and Clubmans both going from the BARC to MSVR ( and Sports 2000 although that wasn't a BARC championship ) it seems the chance of seeing Single Seater , Sports Racing and GT cars at Thruxton ( apart from those on the BTCC schedule ) is unlikely in the near future . Never mind at least the Monopostos are visiting Castle Combe in July .

[andrewc]

The problem with Thruxton is that is is only allowed to host a small number of events per year (12 days worth) of which BTCC, BSB and Trucks are 'biggies' and take half the allocation. The other three weekends are club events - this year being split between BRSCC, CSCC and a new Historic weekend.

There are aren't many trackdays at Thruxton, and the ones there are have to be for fully silenced cars - 90db static.

The pit garages are laughably small and it doesn't suit racing with pitstops, but its certainly not off the beaten track, no more so than Oulton Park is for half the country, or Cadwell/Snetterton.

[bella]

the other problem with thruxton specifically for f3 cup and gt cup is that pirelli wouldn't have it. the increase in tyre costs if they upped the allocation to cover the extra wear isn't to be sniffed at either.

Originally Posted by andrewc

They took F3 Cup to Anglesey twice in the past and got grids half their usual size, so they decided not to go back. I don't think Pembrey is perceived as being up-market enough.

considering half the grid is run by the welsh i'm surprised they haven't campaigned to go back

Originally Posted by Willmaz223

Yes but where else are the meant to go. Same with British GT going to Donington twice. The UK doesn't have enough tracks that are big enough or wide enough to host GT3 or F3 cars.

i mean, msv run f3 (cup and brdc) so it's not hard work to figure out the benefits to them to run their own series at their own circuits on their own events. cutting out the middleman and all that. f3 cars run in monoposto series amongst others as well, so there's no reason they couldn't go for a bit of variety if they really wanted to.

[andrewc]

The current F3 Cup cars are at least one generation too new to run in Monoposto - the newest chassis in the latter is the F307.

When F3 Cup went to Spa, there was dispensation to use two sets of nominated tyres, so if there were concerns about tyres, then same dispensation could be given.

edit to previous message, no reason Croft couldn't be re-visited.

[andrewc]

Additionally Monoposto cars run at 40mm ride height whereas F3 Cup needs to run at 20mm or so. Not much but you need to swap parts over to jack the cars up to that level, and that also has consequences with other regulations dictated by the MSA - rear wing height, so that has to be lowered, and you have to fit a smaller restrictor.

[The Fat Clerk]

i mean, msv run f3 (cup and brdc) so it's not hard work to figure out the benefits to them to run their own series at their own circuits on their own events. cutting out the middleman and all that. f3 cars run in monoposto series amongst others as well, so there's no reason they couldn't go for a bit of variety if they really wanted to.[/QUOTE]


7 rounds, 6 @ Palmer circuits!

[bella]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

7 rounds, 6 @ Palmer circuits!

my bad, they must do a buy 5 get the 6th free coffee card deal or something

[andrewc]

There are other series.

The Drexler F3 series visits Italy, Czech repulic, Hungary and Austria and appears to have widened scope to allow Formula Renault and some F4 cars.

There is an Italian series as well, and Ireland has Formula Boss, in which some F3 cars race against F. Renaults, GP2, modified F3s and a couple of closed wheel Radicals.

In my opinion F3 Cup allowed in the F312 chassis a bit too early and it meant that the F305-F307 car was no longer the car to have, and you either needed a F308-11 with Mercedes or VW power or a F312 or newer car. The older car may have had similar power, but didn't generate the same levels of downforce. Cost of entry for a competitive car a couple of seasons ago was probably £ 40k, now its at least double that, possibly triple.

Maybe letting Formula Renaults in would help?

[bella]

fair enough. but the grid size suggests that something needs to be done to improve the series.

i noticed that they've organised a clashing round with brdc f3. that's going to be a pain in the backside for CDR.

[andrewc]

CDR have coped with clashing rounds before, thats part and parcel of running a team contesting different championships.

Cost of competing has risen sharply in the past few years, its put a lot of people off, including us. I think they have to either do something different to widen its appeal, or be content that there is a small number of drivers wanting to drive a modern thoroughbred single seater in its original, unadulterated form.

Meanwhile GT racing is thriving, and drivers are paying the same or more to drive bigger, heavier, more unsuitable racing cars around a circuit less quickly.

[bella]

still think it's a bit clumsy, but yeah, point taken. just another increase in cost. same goes for scheduling british f3/gt and btcc clashes - the folk who freelance in both have to make a decision.

essentially it's the same problem organisers faced in the old fiaf3/euro f3/proper british f3, isn't it? tiny grids aren't a great selling point, but the car is. are there equivalent series in europe?

[GCCheddaris]

The Drexler-Automotive F3 Cup ( formerly the Austrian F3 Cup ? ) also caters for Formula Three cars not complying with the current set of regulations . Races were held in Italy , Austria , Czech Republic and Hungary so these days it appears to be more of a Central European series and grid sizes appear to be larger than the British F3 Cup series . Whereas the British Series only sees Dallaras from the last two models ( F308 and F312 ) the Drexler series sees cars dating back to 2004 .

The biggest problem for any single seater series these days has to be the lack of availability of suitable machinery . Going back to the nineties ( God is it really thirty years ago ) F3 teams bought new cars every season and sold them at the end of the season to competitors in Class B and they in turn sold them on to club racers to compete in the nineties equivalent of the F3 Cup . This of course applied to other Formulae as well .

Until a decade or so ago things carried on in much the same way when gradually national Formula Three series died out to be replaced by the current one make so called Formula Three . The problem with one make series is that the cars are used for several seasons and thus don't enter the club racing single seater food chain with the result that club single seater racing is in danger of dying out . The whole single seater class structure needs restructuring or single seater racing at a national level will die out in the next decade or so .

Regarding Formula Three and GT cars not racing at Thruxton because of potential tyre problems , I'm slightly bemused that Pirelli wouldn't be able to cope with the circuits admittedly high demands . Much quicker cars have competed for many years and isn't a large part of motor racing the ability to look after your equipment ? More likely is the fact that MSVR run both series and seem reluctant to run races at other clubs circuits other than Silverstone .

[GCCheddaris]

The F3 Cup isn't open to just the last two generations of F3 cars . According to the regulations there are also classes for F3 cars from 1981 to the 2007 , a class for post 1999 cars powered by standard engines and also an invitation class for suitable cars which don't comply with the above . As far as I'm aware no one has competed in any of the classes except the top one recently so allowing in Formula Renaults probably wouldn't increase the grid dramatically either

The real problem is the lack of availability of secondhand F3 cars coming on to the market due to most single seater series becoming one make and retaining their chassis for several seasons rather than selling them at the end of each season .

Unless something is done ( which it won't be ) ' modern ' single seater racing at club level will die out .

[andrewc]

Correct, its not open just to F308-11 and F312-317 cars, but the F305-7 can't compete and the F302-4, F399-01 and older cars are going to be worse.

Monoposto will take up to F307 cars providing they are raised to 40mm and have appropriate restrictor - 25mm for International or National F3 or 28.5mm for the Piedrafieta engine used in Spanish F3 - both those are slightly smaller than F3 Cup but Monoposto don't want these engines having an advantage.

The Trophy Class for older cars is open if anyone wants to enter a single round and win a championship. The open class doesn't acrue Championship points and is effectively for Monoposto cars who want to race in a more expensive championship. The invitational class was used a couple of time last year for current Euroformula Open cars.

[GCCheddaris]

I guess there are at least two reasons for not running F305-7s in the F3 Cup. Firstly the thoroughbred Formula 3 engines are expensive to run compared to those run in the Monoposto series while why pay more to run at the rear of the F3 Cup when you can buy an F305 and run at the front in Monoposto for much less money . A great shame as Class B cars helped to bulk out National Championship F3 grids for many years .

A bigger problem for the future of both Monoposto and F3 Cup will be that of car supply as national single seater series seem to finish at Formula 4 or the occasional National F3 series such as the BRDC one and as they are used for several seasons won't be entering the club supply chain for a while . Maybe Monoposto competitors will go back to building their own cars again ?

[andrewc]

Yes, F3 engines are costly to maintain. Some people religiously send their engines off for a € 10,000 rebuild at the prescribed mileage limits. Others extend the mileage and have to accept that a couple of horses will escape - those horses would make the difference in professional level racing, but less important in club racing. That €10k is just for a routine rebuild, if something catastrophic
happens, a new engine is three times that.

Monoposto F3 has two thorns to contend with (they are aware and are thinking ahead) - the supply of chassis and future supply of engines - currently the favoured option on the older F3 cars which have Toyota or Vauxhall / Opel units is to take the high-performance option (3S-GE from the Toyota MR2/Celica or Vauxhall C20XE "Red Top" from fast Cavaliers and Calibras and to use the F3 engines fitting kit. You could get a perfectly serviceable donor engine from the scrap yard for £ 100- £ 300, but those engines are not so easy to find now...

VW and Mercedes engines don't have an normally aspirated high performance option - the F3 engines created thanks to the F3 rule book, by boring smaller capacity engines, so there isn't a cheap off the shelf alternative. Those cars have high performance options, but often they're either turbocharged and/or over 2 litre capacity.

The modern chassis are mostly either Mercedes or VW and the fitting kits to add a Vauxhall or Toyota engine don't exist. Of course they could be fabricated but at significant expense.

So maybe the Monoposto cars of the future will not be carbon-tubbed F3 machines, reverting to tubular space frame cars such as US FF2000, unless the 850 Tatuus Formula Renaults that are out there decide to go racing.

For years, club racing has relied on the hand-me-downs from professional level series - F3 cars spent 3-4 years in top level F3, possibly spending a couple of years as a Class B car before dropping out when the next generation cars push them out of favour.

[GCCheddaris]

The Tatuus Formula Renaults have been eligible for Monoposto I believe for a few seasons but only a handful have appeared. It's surprising given as you say the numbers made. Have they been regulated to prevent them dominating the Monoposto series?

[GCCheddaris]

Just had a quick look on Racecarsdirect and noticed three single seaters which , technically , could be suited to Mono/Club F3. A Hungarian based championship winning Tatuus Formula Renault is on for €23,000 , a Mono spec Dallara F304 , championship winner in 2017 with a massive spares package is £28,000 while a Ralt RT31 TOMS in Holland, complete but requires a full rebuild , is POA . Living in hope or the effect of the new Geoff Lees Trophy series ?

[andrewc]

There was a separate class for Tatuus Formula Renault 2000's as there are plenty of cars out there and there was support from teams owning these cars. Unfortunately turning those into filled seats was difficult and only a handful of owners joined - I suspect the previously 'pro' FR teams with the cars lying dormant were still charging 'pro' arrive and drive prices for an amateur level championship, so it was amalgamated into Mono F3 after 2 seasons.

They don't want a new car to come in and dominate, upsetting the apple cart, but had hoped the FR could be a popular option for a driver who wanted a strong and reliable carbon tubbed car, that they could engineer and improve. Maybe not the ultimate in performance but a strong mid field option for strong mid-field drivers on a moderate budget - the modern Formula Vauxhall Lotus.

The only mods that were made was that the FR2000 cars had to run the restrictor plate that Protyre Formula Renault BARC cars ran, and had to be run at MSA 40mm ride height too, like all cars in Mono. Otherwise as per published FR BARC regulations although tyre choice was free.

Running the smaller restrictor in its own class was meant that once a bigger sample of lap times had been gleaned and analysed, then maybe the restrictor size could be increased to find the optimal performance level.

[andrewc]

First weekend will be postponed.