Can Webber cut it?

[JV_97]

My first post in the F1 section, and I'm asking whether or not Mark Webber really is as special as some people suggest? From the moment he got the Williams drive I thought it was a strange choice, and I can't say that Mark proved me wrong last season.
I certainly don't think he's a top-ten driver at this moment in time, but maybe someone could show me the other side of the argument and point out why he is so highly rated? I'm open to persuasion

[insideline]

I tend to agree with you JV_97. He came into F1 with a blaze of glory at Melbourne and has flatterd to decieve ever since in my opinion

[ASCII Man]

Like many, I'm unsure about Webber.

After a while in F1, teamed up with reasonable, but unproven teammates, with the exception of Nick Heidfeld ofcourse, he still hasn't proven himself yet as a star of F1, as he was supposed to become judging by all the fanfare surrounding his arrival to the scene...

He has had some terrible blunders last season, but also some great performances as well which shows that on his day he can be as good as anyone, but those days don't come as often enough to consider him a real championship contender.

He's certainly good enough to be ranked amongst the top ten of the lot, but I doubt he's good enough to be WDC one day as opposed to the likes of Kimi, Alonso and Michael. I'd rather think he's more on the level of Button and Montoya.

All in my humble opinion ofcourse.

I'm quite curious how he'll handle next season with Williams now that the team lost it's top of the line engine supply + related sponsors, and an eager youngster in the form of Nico Rosberg snapping at his heels.
Next season will either make or break his reputation as a rising star IMO.

[JV_97]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

He's certainly good enough to be ranked amongst the top ten of the lot

Fernando
Giancarlo
Michael
Ralf
Rubens
Kimi
Juan Pablo
Jacques
Nick
Jarno
Jenson
David

... have all achieved far more. I don't see how Webber can be top 10 at this stage?

[Boro]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Like many, I'm unsure about Webber.

I'd rather think he's more on the level of Button and Montoya.

All in my humble opinion ofcourse.

I'm quite curious how he'll handle next season with Williams now that the team lost it's top of the line engine supply + related sponsors, and an eager youngster in the form of Nico Rosberg snapping at his heels.
Next season will either make or break his reputation as a rising star IMO.

i don't see mw winning the indy 500 anytime soon

[Inigo Montoya]

Welcome to the forum JV_97 I think Webber will prove his worth soon, and if he doesn't, he'll be out of F1 soon, just like anyone else.

The usual warning to everyone - thread will close quickly if it is used to bash.

[maltafan]

I am no avid fan of Webber, however, I cannot say if he is a top 10 driver or not, since till now he was not given a car to prove himself. This year, Williams finished 5th and Webber finished 10th, so I think, given an equal car as the top drivers and a number of accident free races, he will be earlier in the top 10.

[Kirk]

He showed some excellent progress towards the end of last year after some over driving early on, whether it was a coincidence that Nick was not driving then, is not known. Too many F1 fans are quick to judge; lets remember that Mark was in a new car, team and environment. He did show some vulnerabilities but it takes time, and personally I think he will impress in 2006. Is he top ten material?..... that's a fine line as you can throw a blanket over the good drivers in F1 but I'd have to say... if not now, he will be in that category quite soon.
.

[JeremySmith]

These threads just amaze me. Sir Frank Williams who knows *infinitely* more about driver talents than we will ever know, appears to have much confidence in Mark Webber. That is good enough for me!

[Boro]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

These threads just amaze me. Sir Frank Williams who knows *infinitely* more about driver talents than we will ever know, appears to have much confidence in Mark Webber. That is good enough for me!

yah, he sure does.

the same guy that didn't sign up senna back in 83

[Gt_R]

Dear Sir Frank Williams is known to make some smart gambles. But also known to make some blunders (remember HHF, Zinardi, Ralf)... so using Williams as a gauge is not quite as clear an indication.

Objectively, on a rank of 1 (worst) to 5 (best), i'd but Mark somewhere in 3.5 range. He's much like Jarno Trulli in 2003 - 2004... a fast and impressive qualifier, but isn't quite as strong in the race. His ability to race wheel to wheel is also open to questioning. But unlike Trulli, MW is far more strong-willed and confident.

I won't go on to say he isn't WDC material. Any driver nowadays just need to be decently quick and consistent...and he can win the WDC as long as the stronger drivers are in far weaker cars. And decently quick Mark Webber is...all he need is to tune in and further improve his consistency (ie no unneccessary mistakes) and just wait for him to get a car better than Michael, Kimi, Alonso, Montoya.

Right now, i rank him between the likes of DC, Ralf and JV... the range of decent and just a bit more drivers. Time isn't on his side, and as usual, i'd love to see him really show his stuff next year. There's nothing better than to see a driver perform above the ability expected from him.

[SRabbit]

we were shown a good interview with Mark recently - he has been here in Australia recently to help promote next years GP in Melbourne so they grabbed the chance to get some honesty out of him.

He basically said that he went to Williams, as any driver would, excited at the prospect of driving one of the top cars. He said that the disappointment for himself and within the whole team once they realsied they were no where near it was tough for all to handle. He said they basically resigned to the fact it was going to be a tough year right from the start as aero was the problem and it cant be fixed in a week as its at least a 12 month program starting from a philosophy that was gotten wrong.

He said they have been working overtime on their car as it will be all new - new engine supplier, new gearboxes to fit the new engine, new areo, new tyres so he said its fingers crossed but they're confident - especially in the engine already.

Mark openly admitted to overdriving the car which caused the mistakes because he would not accept that he was in a Williams and it wasnt a nice car, so he has had to regroup within himself and regain his focus and said he will be trying for more consistent results regardless of where the car is in terms of the front-runners should he not be one of them.

[Peter Mallett]

SRabbit,

Not doubting your post but it would be good to see the interview. Can you post the URL please?

[SRabbit]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

SRabbit,

Not doubting your post but it would be good to see the interview. Can you post the URL please?

It was a television interview and Ive been trying to find a transcript for you but there doesnt seem to be one yet.
If you are still interested I think I taped it, so I'll be happy to sit down and watch it again and just paraphrase the main points for you. I know Ive missed a fair bit because I now recall he discusses Nico, how the team took Jenson basically saying Williams werent good enough for him, and that Renault don't yet have V8 program as they continued to work the V10 til the end to ensure the WDC for Fernando - he also said Alonso told him all the ins and outs of the engine specs, revs, power etc now that it isnt relevant for next year .

[Jordi]

Perhaps it wasn't in an URL, maybe it was in a magazine Peter...

As for Mark, I think the jury is still out on him. You couldn't say he lost to Heidfeld at Williams, they were pretty evenly matched. He and the team made a few mistakes too... and he surely was frustrated about the lack of performance of the FW27. After all, this one was probably the worst Williams since 1999.

Hopefully he and Rosberg will have a better car for 2006, but that's what we hope of all teams, have better cars so they can all be fighting at the front!

[marcus]

I believe it was a TV interview.

I remember hearing him say most of that and it sounds about right oo.

I cant really comment , as 1. Im an Aussie and 2 I have watched Mark since his Formula Ford days here in Australia and personally think he is something special.

I dunno if he ranks as high as I would like but I certainly hope he does , I would be very chuffed.

as for Roseberg in 06 Its way too hard to compare their performances , of course if Nico comes out and Spanks mark then there will be trouble but Nico is young and inexperienced so you would assume that Mark has the advantage.

I'd love the day when Mark actually gets a team mate that can challenge him very well (Hiedfeld was close but had a shocking year and Im not a fan of him at all (again my persoanl opinion) and I dont think 06 will be a season for that to happen....but you never know

Go Webber is all I can say

[spectator22]

Some short memories around here. The guy put Minardis up where they shouldnt be, qualified Jaguars on the front row and blew Klien away (which DC has hardly done). He was just unlucky enough to go to a top team just when that team was about to drop the ball big time, losing pretty much a whole year thanks to major aerodynamic faults with the car. In my view the question should really be Can Williams Cut It? In the right car MW can cut it IMO.

[speedfreek]

Originally Posted by spectator22

Some short memories around here. The guy put Minardis up where they shouldnt be, qualified Jaguars on the front row and blew Klien away (which DC has hardly done).

my opinion exactly, he is a good driver and will do fine, if williams continue to struggle and he opts to leave, he will get a competitive drive easily.

[maltafan]

Originally Posted by speedfreek

my opinion exactly, he is a good driver and will do fine, if williams continue to struggle and he opts to leave, he will get a competitive drive easily.

It depends which seats are vacant.

I think that Webber is worth the car he is driving and maybe a slightly better one, but I do not think that he could ever be a WDC.

[Nado]

Originally Posted by maltafan

It depends which seats are vacant.

I think that Webber is worth the car he is driving and maybe a slightly better one, but I do not think that he could ever be a WDC.

Lets hope your wrong.

Don't agree with speedfreak though, if Williams do not produce a decent car next year - Webber will be effectively screwed IMHO. Having said that... if Renault stays, and Flavio stays, Fisi underperforms and Alonso goes to Ferrari then Webber's in with a good chance there, but if Williams and/or Webber underperforms next year, I don't think he'll be looked at by any other top team.

[1200Datto27]

I recall that the interview was done on RPM, so there may be a transcript available from there website.

I think that the problems with the Williams where the most obvious at China, where the cars had 15kph speed deficit on the straights, this comes done to an L : D ratio issue, where the cars had to much drag, and they couldn't trim it out without losing the downforce.

[Gt_R]

I agree. Mark had to drive difficult cars in his career. The Jaguar wasn't good...and then when everyone thought Williams would allow MW to show his talent, the car was trash. Hence, it'd be silly to compare what he achieve against Alonso in Renault. As a result, the only comparison we can draw is how Mark fare against his teammates. He din't have a decent quality teammate until Nick Heidfeld came along. And the result was balanced at best.

No doubt though these guys are some of the best in the business, having a good record before they are in F1. The final step for the open-wheel driver to establish himself above the rest.

[BootsOntheSide]

Klien was a rookie when he faced Webber, so he was obviously an easier opponent that the driver DC faced this year. And at least Coulthard didn't botch start after start, or get into collision after collision (many of them not his fault, but there is a knack to not being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I even saw someone on here try to blame JPM for Webber forgetting to brake and ramming him). Webber was quite impressive at Minardi, but less so than Alonso the year before.

When Webber's poor starts and gradual race-day performance fades happened at Minardi and Jagaur, we were trold by the hordes of Webber-fanatics that it was all down to the car (even though anybody looking at the laptimes could see that Klien didn't have the same problems), but the same problems continued at Williams.

In Mark's defence, his drives at Suzuka and Spa were superb, and it's hard to imagine Nick being as impressive in those two races, although we'll never know. If Mark carries on like that, my opinion of him will rise, but I'd say he's in the mid-range of current F1 drivers. He needs to convincingly beat Nico next year, and take advantage of any early races where Cosworth's V8 experience tells relative to other teams ahving inconsistant or unreliable engines. Personally I would not be surprised if Nico is the faster driver by the end of the year, but Mark has scored a lot more points with Williams more competitive early in the season to ensure that he finishes well clear in the standings.

[strider]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

In Mark's defence, his drives at Suzuka and Spa were superb, and it's hard to imagine Nick being as impressive in those two races, although we'll never know.

I think that is significant. If you can perform on those two circuits, which are probably the most challenging on the F1 calendar, then you can't be too shabby a driver.

There was an interesting article by Mark Hughes in Autosport recently in which he showed conclusively that Webber had indeed outperformed Heidfeld over the season. You can't look at the bare stats alone. You have to take into account things like fuel load and the running order in qualifying.

That said, I think Mark was surprised by by Heidfeld's race results. Nick is a quiet sort of guy and he does kinda sneak into the points scoring positions. Mark is more maximum attack and, by his own admission, that led to him making some mistakes last season. But he is also smart and I doubt if he will repeat them.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by foxy mole

There was an interesting article by Mark Hughes in Autosport recently in which he showed conclusively that Webber had indeed outperformed Heidfeld over the season. You can't look at the bare stats alone. You have to take into account things like fuel load and the running order in qualifying.

Hughes has long been an apologist for Webber - and it's shaky territory when drivers need a "yeah, but" article to defend them