Sports car/endurance sporting regulations

[Mike E]

We all love a good moan about track limits, safety cars, full course yellows, wave arounds, drive times, driver gradings blah blah blah. So here is a thread just for that. Let's keep the whinging in race and series threads to a minimum by complaining about it here! Fair enough if it's relevant to a race outcome, but general discussions about different approaches just pollute the race threads.
If you don't want to know, you don't have to read it.
And if we wander too far off piste in another thread we can be gently directed here by our fellow posters.

[AndrewCherry]

Originally Posted by Mike E

...And if we wander too far off piste in another thread...

...then presumably we'll receive a series of drive throughs of ever increasing duration?

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by AndrewCherry

...then presumably we'll receive a series of drive throughs of ever increasing duration?

Eventually it becomes a grid place penalty for the next thread, which means you can't contribute until it has x-number of posts. Worst case scenario, you have to start from the pitlane only after 1 full page of the topic has been completed.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Mike E

And if we wander too far off piste in another thread

Then they can be directed to SkiTalk, obviously!

Good idea Mike. Not sure how much take-up there will be but at least initially it will be good to see who gripes about what, so you are warned in advance in race threads.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Good idea Mike. Not sure how much take-up there will be but at least initially it will be good to see who gripes about what, so you are warned in advance in race threads.

Yeah, not sure it will really work but I have a genuine question.

Does anyone at all think IMSA's safety car procedure is a good thing?
I have stopped watching IMSA races on several occasions because life is just too short to sit through laps of SC with pits closed, pits open for prototypes, pits open for GTs, wave around, cars that pitted catching the SC train, more wave arounds etc. Usually for a SC that was triggered by a single car spin that was recovered immediately after the SC was sent out, about 20 minutes before. I don't get it.

It's my candidate for worst FCY/SC procedure.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Does anyone at all think IMSA's safety car procedure is a good thing? I have stopped watching IMSA races on several occasions because life is just too short to sit through laps of SC with pits closed, pits open for prototypes, pits open for GTs, wave around, cars that pitted catching the SC train, more wave arounds etc. Usually for a SC that was triggered by a single car spin that was recovered immediately after the SC was sent out, about 20 minutes before. I don't get it.

Ah yes, IMSA pit procedures. To the best of my recollection:
- pits closed for a lap so nobody gains directly from the yellow call
- split GT/prototype pits so too many cars are not on pit lane at once
- constant wave-rounds so everybody knows their position for the restart

But I agree, this edges out SRO's procedure for its sheer, obnoxious length.

Aside from the usual justifications, one "benefit" of longer control periods is that it gives more down time for drivers on track - especially amateurs - and consequently they should be more prepared mentally and physically for the restart. I'm probably talking out my behind*, but it may be away for a series to be seen as "driver-friendly".

*Not much change there then...

[joeb]

Originally Posted by J Jay

- pits closed for a lap so nobody gains directly from the yellow call

- split GT/prototype pits so too many cars are not on pit lane at once

- constant wave-rounds so everybody knows their position for the restart

I hadn't really thought about this until you outlined it, but really the whole point of the procedure is to allow a safe way to clean up whatever happened on track by bunching the cars together in one group. But then it made me wonder if really the idea is to just get the cars back together if racing has spread them out. In other words is it really just an effort to improve the show? Especially the separate pit openings for prototypes and GT cars that way you get the classes separate and you are more likely to be near your competitors at the restart.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by joeb

I hadn't really thought about this until you outlined it, but really the whole point of the procedure is to allow a safe way to clean up whatever happened on track by bunching the cars together in one group. But then it made me wonder if really the idea is to just get the cars back together if racing has spread them out. In other words is it really just an effort to improve the show? Especially the separate pit openings for prototypes and GT cars that way you get the classes separate and you are more likely to be near your competitors at the restart.

... TenTenths would really benefit from more up-to-date media integration.

As WyldStallion said, it's an accepted/welcomed (delete as appropriate) part of racing culture in America to have the field reset during caution periods. Cautions breed cautions is an oft-repeated maxim, but if it provides the entertainment that the audience are used to, it isn't going to go away any time soon.

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Yeah, not sure it will really work but I have a genuine question.

Does anyone at all think IMSA's safety car procedure is a good thing?
I have stopped watching IMSA races on several occasions because life is just too short to sit through laps of SC with pits closed, pits open for prototypes, pits open for GTs, wave around, cars that pitted catching the SC train, more wave arounds etc. Usually for a SC that was triggered by a single car spin that was recovered immediately after the SC was sent out, about 20 minutes before. I don't get it.

It's my candidate for worst FCY/SC procedure.

I would rank IMSA as a close 2nd for the worst behind the SRO. But SRO's issue is a very very easy fix. Just end the "SC" part of the FCY/SC. Because they do all the clean up during the FCY part already.

IMSA is in different culture and location of course. But there are changes they can do within reason. The easiest is to implememnt "FCY" for debris and stalled car situations. Gaps are preserved and no wave arounds and no further delays. Keep currrent safety car procedures for crashes and bad weather.

The best handler of caution periods is the WEC for the non Le Mans races. Although shout out to the originators Creventic.

[WyldStallion]

This thread topic is a great idea. Kudos to Mike E for thinking of it.

[Adam43]

Great idea to encourage discussion on all aspects of sportscar racing

We can implement penalties.

[Adam43]

There are two extremes. They purposely throw cautions (etc.) to cause close racing is one. The other is that they avoid cautions (etc.) to be complete pure.

We were close to the first a few years back in IMSA I think. We haven’t been at the later since the 50s.

I do not believe that IMSA are so close to the first now. I’d describe it as they are cautious with safety (and there are other reasons to do this) and they are happy for the consequence on the racing.

[Pandamasque]

The consequence on racing is that there is a 25-40 minute race-altering FCY every time a car spins, even if it recovers on its own, even if it recovers before the SC comes out, which also plagues IndyCar. I find this to be the most infuriating thing about American racing as a whole. It really ruins IMSA for me. It's a shame that the only series of this level with proper old school tracks is so gimmicky rules-wise.
GTD qualifying is another thing. What were they thinking? I just gave up tuning into the quali.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

The consequence on racing is that there is a 25-40 minute race-altering FCY every time a car spins, even if it recovers on its own, even if it recovers before the SC comes out,

This is the thing that winds me up most about IMSA's procedure. There seems to be no flexibility. Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that they just want an excuse to bunch the field.

My ideal would be:
Use FCY whenever possible rather than SC, or local slow zones on longer tracks. If a SC is the most appropriate option then fine.
Never close the pitlane, unless the incident has actually occurred in the pitlane.
No pass around.

There would be winners and losers with the above system but it's simple, and in a world of spec (or semi-spec) cars, BoP and generally very good reliability a bit of randomness would be welcome, in my opinion.

[Jabbar993]

Originally Posted by Mike E

This is the thing that winds me up most about IMSA's procedure. There seems to be no flexibility. Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that they just want an excuse to bunch the field.

My ideal would be:
Use FCY whenever possible rather than SC, or local slow zones on longer tracks. If a SC is the most appropriate option then fine.
Never close the pitlane, unless the incident has actually occurred in the pitlane.
No pass around.

There would be winners and losers with the above system but it's simple, and in a world of spec (or semi-spec) cars, BoP and generally very good reliability a bit of randomness would be welcome, in my opinion.

This is basically what ACO does, isn´t it? Although they do have some kind of passaround I believe.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Jabbar993

This is basically what ACO does, isn´t it? Although they do have some kind of passaround I believe.

They have started messing about with pit closures and pass arounds.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Mike E

This is the thing that winds me up most about IMSA's procedure. There seems to be no flexibility. Which leads to the inevitable conclusion that they just want an excuse to bunch the field.

"There's a fly on my balls. I better cut them off then, just to be sure!"
"Heeey... Are you totally sure?... oh look, the fly's gone"
"No. I already grabbed the scissors! Can't stop this now!"

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

State of series has just a few major points:

1. Back to a schedule that looks a lot like 2019. A good thing I think. Lime Rock and VIR retain all GT status. Double goodies.
2. GTD Pro and GTD Am will work under same BoP.
3. Single Qualifying GTD session. Grid set on overall lap time. If by a miracle a silver or bronze driver is the fastest qualifier over the GTD Pro cars, they get to start the race first.


Guessing sporting regs comes after the 2021 season ends. I have my wishes but that can be discussed on the "Sportscar/Endurance sporting regulations" thread on the main Sportscar & GT Racing page.

All of that sounds surprisingly sensible. I remember in the old GT2 days a considerable portion of the class was rather Pro Am. They usually didn't compete for class wins, but since they were the same cars they could get in the mix while the hot shoes were driving. The new look GTD seems similar, but with an extra trophy for the Am cars.

[WyldStallion]

SRO officials reallly made a mess of the 8 hours of Indy didn't they. 11 safety car periods! I can't imagine the Speedway will want them back after that. They want an endurance race not a parade with wrecks in between. Big shame after the Spa 24 went off fairly well. Safety car rules thankfully did not ruin that one.


My non-realistic wish would be for Indy 8 to become a race for IMSA GTD and Michilen Pilot Challene to run in together. But maybe this debacle will teach SRO some lessons? Maybe....errr..probably not :-(

[W2Motorsport]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

SRO officials reallly made a mess of the 8 hours of Indy didn't they. 11 safety car periods! I can't imagine the Speedway will want them back after that. They want an endurance race not a parade with wrecks in between. Big shame after the Spa 24 went off fairly well. Safety car rules thankfully did not ruin that one.


My non-realistic wish would be for Indy 8 to become a race for IMSA GTD and Michilen Pilot Challene to run in together. But maybe this debacle will teach SRO some lessons? Maybe....errr..probably not :-(

The majority of the safety car periods were for legitimate issues where a safety car would be needed and would likely be called in an IMSA race as well. There were maybe a couple of instances where the SC took longer than needed but for the most part the issue was related to actual driving standards which were surprisingly bad considering the caliber of the grid. I spent most of the day around the final sector and there were many instances of fairly heavy contact that went unnoticed on the broadcast in addition to all of the contact that was well documented. I was walking around the garage after the race and you would of thought it had been a NASCAR or BTCC race, I'm not used to seeing cars this expensive with tire marks all over them and damage to every corner.

Also, they were talking about the dates for next years race already on the PA system at the track so your dreams of IMSA taking over the event are unlikely it seems at least in 2022. As with most SRO customer driven events I'm pretty sure the majority of the income from the race is derived from driver/manufacturer entry fees and team/hospitality related fees and not by spectator gate admission. If the manufacturers have an issue and stop participating then that is when I'd expect changes to the event promoter. Until that point I'd expect that SRO will maintain control.

Ideally, I'd like to see an IGTC race as well as an IMSA race at Indy each year personally. I know its very popular to hate on SRO here but I appreciate a lot of things they do. They aren't perfect but they stream their races for free, and easily on Youtube which is more than can be said for pretty much anyone else. The production quality is very high as well. They bring in quality entries from all over for the IGTC races as well. SRO have developed, and kept the class in check and it has personally become my favorite type of racing. The BOP that they apply for their series as well as other series around the world seems to be great as well with a big mix of manufacturers always in contention. I can say good things about most promoters in road racing, and bad things as well just like with SRO. Ideally I want them all to be successful in order to grow the sport.

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by W2Motorsport

The majority of the safety car periods were for legitimate issues where a safety car would be needed and would likely be called in an IMSA race as well. There were maybe a couple of instances where the SC took longer than needed but for the most part the issue was related to actual driving standards which were surprisingly bad considering the caliber of the grid. I spent most of the day around the final sector and there were many instances of fairly heavy contact that went unnoticed on the broadcast in addition to all of the contact that was well documented. I was walking around the garage after the race and you would of thought it had been a NASCAR or BTCC race, I'm not used to seeing cars this expensive with tire marks all over them and damage to every corner.

Also, they were talking about the dates for next years race already on the PA system at the track so your dreams of IMSA taking over the event are unlikely it seems at least in 2022. As with most SRO customer driven events I'm pretty sure the majority of the income from the race is derived from driver/manufacturer entry fees and team/hospitality related fees and not by spectator gate admission. If the manufacturers have an issue and stop participating then that is when I'd expect changes to the event promoter. Until that point I'd expect that SRO will maintain control.

Ideally, I'd like to see an IGTC race as well as an IMSA race at Indy each year personally. I know its very popular to hate on SRO here but I appreciate a lot of things they do. They aren't perfect but they stream their races for free, and easily on Youtube which is more than can be said for pretty much anyone else. The production quality is very high as well. They bring in quality entries from all over for the IGTC races as well. SRO have developed, and kept the class in check and it has personally become my favorite type of racing. The BOP that they apply for their series as well as other series around the world seems to be great as well with a big mix of manufacturers always in contention. I can say good things about most promoters in road racing, and bad things as well just like with SRO. Ideally I want them all to be successful in order to grow the sport.

You are mostly right W2 I see your point. Glad you got to be there in person. Great perspective. The cringe to see so much damage to Porsches, Ferraris, Audis, etc. These are not the spec stock cars the other series you mentioned has.

I have been into SRO racing since 2010. I think its awesome. Just disagree with their safety car procedures which is why I posted it on this thread. The more of them there are the more the flaws exposes themselves. We were able to avoid that at Spa. GT WC has been pretty good as a whole this year. The Indy 8 was the first stinker of the year honestly.

Back to the safety car. I go back and forth on who is worst with their safety car proceduers...IMSA or SRO. Probably IMSA ultimatey. I just don't like that SRO does the FCY while cleaning the track....then bunches the field for a safety car. IMSA has the wave around rules, the quick reaction to fly it for debris sometimes, and sepearting the classes at restarts. Go to youtube and watch the 2nd half of the IMSA Weathertech series race at Long Beach in 2017. That will show you why I liked the old way of doing things.

[W2Motorsport]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

You are mostly right W2 I see your point. Glad you got to be there in person. Great perspective. The cringe to see so much damage to Porsches, Ferraris, Audis, etc. These are not the spec stock cars the other series you mentioned has.

I have been into SRO racing since 2010. I think its awesome. Just disagree with their safety car procedures which is why I posted it on this thread. The more of them there are the more the flaws exposes themselves. We were able to avoid that at Spa. GT WC has been pretty good as a whole this year. The Indy 8 was the first stinker of the year honestly.

Back to the safety car. I go back and forth on who is worst with their safety car proceduers...IMSA or SRO. Probably IMSA ultimatey. I just don't like that SRO does the FCY while cleaning the track....then bunches the field for a safety car. IMSA has the wave around rules, the quick reaction to fly it for debris sometimes, and sepearting the classes at restarts. Go to youtube and watch the 2nd half of the IMSA Weathertech series race at Long Beach in 2017. That will show you why I liked the old way of doing things.

Yeah I totally understand that for sure. I think the divide is between the people here (lets say true endurance racing fans) and the average casual fans -- especially in America. The idea of one or two cars being on the lead lap at the end of the race is off putting to the majority of people even if those two cars deserved it.

My grandfather does not like road racing at all - he likes dirt and asphalt short track racing with the bumping and banging and the majority of cars on the lead lap and cautions to bunch up the field, etc. He often asks me how or why I like road racing because there isn't as much passing or action. He kept checking the Indy 8 Hours because I was there and I think he was trying to watch for me in the background on the broadcast or something but eventually he actually became interested in the race because of all the drama. When I talked to him on the phone the next day he told me how that was probably the most interesting road race he's ever watched.

It might not be the most true endurance race but it did have a lot of lead changes, a lot of action and a lot of drama. The pit strategy was fun to see play out bringing several cars back from a lap down multiple times (and the 99 back to contention for the win from a lap down twice). Ultimately all the cars are racing under the same rules so in a sense it is still fair although certain cars will be unlucky in certain races and others will be lucky. I do think trying to attract new fans to Endurance racing by having one or two cars on the lead lap is unlikely to be something that works. Even I get bored and tune out sometimes when the winner is a foregone conclusion with 2 or 3 hours to go.

[broadrun96]

Do you really not understand the reason or are you intentionally obstinate??

Umm and watch more racing, that would have happened under your magical virtual FCY as that's LITERALLY what happened there. One row went and one did not based on a virtual call from 4 corners ahead


Answer to the first condition, IT'S NEVER GONNA HAPPEN IN A US BASED SERIES. NEVER, insurance always wins

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Do you really not understand the reason or are you intentionally obstinate??

Umm and watch more racing, that would have happened under your magical virtual FCY as that's LITERALLY what happened there. One row went and one did not based on a virtual call from 4 corners ahead


Answer to the first condition, IT'S NEVER GONNA HAPPEN IN A US BASED SERIES. NEVER, insurance always wins

Creventic has had Code 60 when running in the USA before. I don't "buy" this insurance argument.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

Creventic has had Code 60 when running in the USA before. I don't "buy" this insurance argument.

They are NOT a US based series. IMSA is wholly based and insured within the US. Sorry, you can not buy it but it's reality and pretending you know better just shows cluelessness on your part

PLEASE LISTEN VERY CLEARLY, NO ONE IS ALLOWED ON A NOT FULL COURSE CAUTIONED TRACK UNDER US SERIES (and insured) SAFETY RULES. I spent almost 2 hours on Thursday of Petit weekend talking with a couple from the Homaltro safety team. they have asked and been told by every series they work with that without a FCY you cannot go on track. This couple did while working a Creventic event and were fired mid-session while waiting for clearance to enter the track. So before you run your yap and pretend somehow me telling you factual information is condescending, it is not you're just thin skinned, maybe try actually talking to track officials and workers. You might learn something