"NASCAR races are some of the best races to watch."--Jenson Button

[Joe Fan]

He said this in an interview for Fox Sports. OK, NASCAR Johnny Benson traveled to Silvertstone this year to watch the British Grand Prix and Jenson makes the above quote. Why can't racing fans be respectful of other motorsports as these two drivers.

[Lee]

Joe, Unfortunatly all drivers don't show the same "professional" attitude about other series that Benson and Button do. Case in point, the assinine, conceded little, "explicit deleted", Montoya, after getting bumped off the pole yesterday at Indy! He stormed off, refused to talk to Bill Webber, until forced to do so, (Bob Jenkins and Tom Sneva, I think I heard it was him in the booth, were appaled by his actions from what I heard) then claimed "the only reason I lost the pole was because Greg Ray had better weather conditions than I did". The fact was that the weather was worse when Ray made his attempt than the "explicit deleted" made his! He couldn be gracious and congradulate Ray for his accomplishment, and I don't want to hear any of the "well, he doesn't have enough of a command of the English language, or that he is so competive, and hates to loose, or any of that, its all a bunch of **** ! Fact is, he is childish, rude, stuck on himself, looks down on other competitors, in his own series as well as other series, and other series (the IRL especially). He has nothing but contempt for everyone, and everything going on around him that is connected with the Indy 500, thinks everybody should bow to him like he's something special! He thinks his "explicit" doesn't stink! He is in bad need of a lesson in humility, and I hope the hard walls of Indy give him one, without physical injury, but alot of injury to his over inflated ego! All of this leads me into my answer of your original question. We have only our experiences to judge, base our feelings on etc. Everything that I mentioned above was learned from reading various racing forums, or from what I saw on RPM2Nite, Raceday or other T.V. programs. I did not watch any of the Indy time trials for two reasons, first is because I'm really only intrested in stock cars, and second, because I hate open-wheel racing. Here is the reason, and this is the answer to your question. I'm from the Southern part of the United States, orignially from just outside Atlanta, Georgia. I now claim North Carolina as home. I've been following stock car racing since 1958, saw my first race, in person, in 1959. Once I got old enough to travel around and meet people from other parts of the country I was confronted with people from outside the South. The bigotry was profound! Because I was a stock car fan, I was told that I am uneducated, (odd, since I hold a B.S. degree) inbred, stupid, ignorant etc. Stock cars, NASCAR etc. were taxicab racers, no-talented and couldn't hold a candle to open-wheel or road-racers. Had to put up with names like Nascab, NAScrap, etc. I kept hearing, and ignoring this drivel until I could stand it no more! Because of the assinine attitude that these types displayed toward me, I developed a cold, pure, burning hatred of open-wheel and road-racing! I look at these forms of racing, and the fans of these with the same scorn and contempt that they have for me, pure hatred! I will say that there is a gentleman that post on this forum, and several others that I participate in, his name is Heeltoe6, and he has been very civil, and a friend toward me. We often see eye to eye on issues, but sometime disagree, but he has always been respectful of my opinions, and doesn't look down on me because of where I'm from or the form of racing I choose to like. It is unfortunate that he is the only open-wheel fan that I've ever run across, either in person or on a forum, that is human. How does this hurt, consider this, the IRL has been trying to stage a race in Atlanta for the last several years now, with very poor attendance. Well, why would I (or any other Southern fan) want to attend an event where the fans of this series look upon me in the manner mentioned above? Now cart makes noises about wanting to race in Atlanta, as rude as the IRL types are toward Southerners, the cart types are about 100 times worse! I will not support any open-wheel series, in fact I will discourage anyone I know from attending their races. If I had my way, both series would cease to exist, as I hate both! You wanted an answer as to why, well here is my answer. I'm a product of how I, for many years, have been treated by the other side! You would think they would be smart enough to realize that their attitudes have done nothing but drive people away, especially when they need people in the stands so bad. Unfortunatly, for them, their attitudes have gotten worse instead of better, and they have alienated me, (and many like me) as a fan forever, they have created an enemy, that if their survival depends on, their out of luck! Thanks for letting me vent. See you later.

Lee

[This message has been edited by Lee (edited 21 May 2000).]

[Heeltoe6]

Lee: You are way off base, as a lot of people are, about Juan Montoya. (I kbnow you didn't want to hear this, but it's the truth) You have to remember that English is a second language to him. He's always withdrawn and hates talking to the press for fear of messing up. It comes of as superiority, but I can assure you it is nothing of the sort.

As for the specific interview, I saw it and Montoya didn't say that, don't know who's posting what, but they're trying to start somehting or have a biased opinion; and if you caught any of it on Raceday,RPM,etc, you gotta remember they're just looking for the juiciest soundbytes and take things way out of context. Montoya was very withdrawn (he was walking, had somewhere to go) and just said something to the effect of (paraphrase) "Yeah, you'd like to be on the pole, but really second is pretty good, and as far as the race goes, it really won't make much of a difference." After this, Webber kept pressing him, obviously fishing for something, but Juan didn't say much more. I'll grant it was obvious he didn't want to be talking to Webber, but who would. How do you think it feels to be knocked off the pole...please. Furthermore, Montoya didn't say anyhting about the weather, at least in this interview. If anything, Montoya was wholeheartedly indifferent, not mad, not angry, not rude...just apathetic. Speaking form personal experience, that can come off as cold a lot, but it really isn't.

As for Webber, got to criticize him for this, and that's too bad cause I love him in Nascar. But he (along with a lot of others...Artue, Sneva) have been trying to bait and trap drivers into blowing the whole cart/irl thing way out of proportion. Fortunately, drivers on all sides are handling themselves with class, saying it's just another race against the fastest 33 guys.

Another thing you have to remember is that Juan doesn't care about the indy 500; and that's not an air of arrogance, it's just that he sees it as another race. Growing up in Colombia, why would he have any affinity for it. So when the media tries to hype eevrything, he's not playing their game, and he comes across cold becuase of that. But he's not.

As far as calling out people for being rude, how bout Mark Dismore; he made some very gloating comments when Ray took the pole. Said he'd buy himself a Ray t-shirt. Now that's rude. Montoya may not have said anyhting nice about Ray, but he didn't trash him either.

Now, as for Button, I bet he's the only guy in F1 who would say that, unfortunately. I really like Button, btw, he's gonna be a great. Unfortunately, there isn't the respect for different forms of motorposrts from the racers themselves we had 30 years ago or so, where drivers would drive anything (f1, indy, trans-am, can-am, nascar) all in the same year. imho, the worst comes from F1, which dumps on everything else, mainly because the FIA is afraid another series could usurp it's dominance. The CART/irl thing is pretty bad as well, but that's for political reasons, and it's mostly rhetoric. Nascar gets a bad rap as well, but it's surprising to see how many drivers looking into it (all them open wheelers, plus a few touring var drivers). Surprisingly, I have seen sports cars drivers dumped on pretty badly by some poeple because it's viewed as amateur and that people mostly buy rides.

[marcus]

Lee Im sorry you feel this way about us "open wheel" fans and I must say I was a little disturbed by your post but i guess that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
point in fact Im an open wheel fan always have been and always will be BUT tin tops are still cars and above all else Im a racing fan and i dont think Nascar drivers are hopeless in fact I think they are quite mad (in a good way) 43 cars doing over 200mph with only a fag paper between them..either very brave or very stupid ..but it is exciting and i love all forms of racing from karts to F1 right through to Nascar and even super touring.
obviously you have had a few bad experiences in the past with other people but please dont stereotype us all as some of us just love to race and will give any machine the respect it truly deserves.

2 great races I would love to attend are the Indy 500 and the Daytona 500 as they are BOTH 2 of the greatest races in the world and as I said Im biased towards openwheelers doesnt mean I will pass up the chance for a Nascar race and I wouldnt discourage anyone from going to either race.

[Crash Test]

I'm right with you on this one Marcus. Do you think you are helping your own cause with that? Do you think we are going to have a good opinion of you if you go around hating everything?

Where ever you are it may be acceptable to go around hating things, but you're going to be very lonely around here if you want to live by this sort of philosophy...

[Lee]

Heeltoe6,
You, my friend, are the eternal optimist, always trying to find the bright side to any, and everything. I wish I could feel that way, but the "school of hard knocks" has taught me otherwise. In reference to Montoya, you say that he is afraid to mess up, since English is his second language, and he has poor command of it. Well, if he has that much trouble communicating, he probally has an intrepitator (sorry, spelling) that could give him the proper phrase to congradulate someone. I really don't see how it requires a whole lot of command of the English language for him to say, "Congradulations to Greg Ray for winning the pole". If his command of the English language is that bad, I'm curious how he is able to communicate with his crew, either over the radio, during a race, or in the pits. Sorry Buddy, but on this one I have to disagree with you.
In reguards to Mark Dismore, I wasn't aware of any statement that he had made, about tee-shirts, didn't see it on any of the shows, (RPM2Nite etc.) however, since I don't follow either series, it shouldn't come as a supprise. To be truthful, about the only thing I know about Dismore is that he drives in the irl series, ran in the IROC Series, and that his son is a rookie on the ASA stock car circuit this year, along with A.J. Foyt's son, Larry. Other than that, I don't know anything about him.
As for Bill Webber, I've never seen him being rude to anyone, however since I've only seen him in NASCAR coverage, and on RPM, I can't say how he is, covering other series. As for Jack Arute, I think he use to cover NASCAR races, at one time, but if so, I barly remember him, don't know or remember what he looks like. Don't know how he handles situations. If Webber and Arute are being rude to cart drivers, its certainlly no worse than Robin Miller on RPM2Nite, or in the his writings for the Indianapolis Scar. He never has anything good, civil or nice to say about the irl, and he has been quite insulting towards NASCAR. So I guess, in this case, "one hand washes the other". Anyway, the above was my attempt to answer Joe Fan's question, can't speak for anyone else, only for myself, and just told him why I felt the way I do. Maybe its unfortunate that I feel the way I do, but my reasons, stated above are valid, to my situation. Thank you, for being the "exception to the rule" on this issue. I enjoy our discussions, even though we sometime disagree, and consider you a friend. Take care, and have a good evening.

Lee

[Joe Fan]

When Juan Montoya was interviewed shortly after Ganassi confirmed his Indy 500 participation, he did say that he was aware of the 500 and what it meant. He said that he watched some of those races as a child and he thought it was great that he would get a shot at winning it.

[Heeltoe6]

"You, my friend, are the eternal optimist, always trying to find the bright side to any, and everything."
Lee, would you believe that you are the first person to ever say that to me. Usually it's the exact opposite, but I guess racing brings out the best in me

Hmm, you're right about Robin MIller, but I think it's not that he's pro-CART, per se, he's just way anti-irl. He'll dump on cart (unecessairly, imho) for running the Nazareth race and for lack of American drivers. But otherwise, yeah, he's suualy bening to cart and wicked to the irl.

Lee, it is unfortunate that you feel the way you do, but I cannot blame you. As I think I've said before at thatsracin, before I was an openweel fans, just stokcs and a lukewarm touring car fan, I spent a lot of time at the ESPN motorsport chat, and there was a hardcore group of F1ers and CARTers that did dump on NAscar and us NAscar posters a lot, but there were a lot more nicer ones who couldn't care less. It's a shame, the vocal minority (or bad apple) always spoils the bunch. Just form the frequent flame wars that I enountered there, I can only imagine what it must be like to be subjected to that for 40 years, and in perosn, not just through bandwith.

[Lee]

Marcus,
First, I don't recall ever having any dealings with you before now. I have not, to the best of my knowledge, ever run across a post from you before. Looking up your bio, I see you are from Australia, a country that I have had the pleasure of visiting once, and liked very much. As that is the case, I don't think that you can fully understand where I'm comming from on this issue. Please don't take this as a bash, or insult, because it's not. You see, this is pretty much an "American thing". Some of it has it's roots in the American Civil War. Many, many people from the Northeastern, and Midwestern parts of this nation look down on people from the Southeastern part of the nation. Somehow they feel themselves superior. These areas, along with the West Coast, (Califorina, Oregan, Washington State) who seem to have have adopted the same attitude toward the South, (North vs. South in that Civil War) also happen to be where the majority of the open-wheel fans in this country come from. Stock car racing, maybe I should say NASCAR stock car racing, happens to have been born in the South, shortly after the end of World War II. We, in the South, and our stock car series, NASCAR, were always ridiculed by the open-wheel fans. Funny now, how many people from these same areas (but as a general rule not the vast majority of the open-wheel fans, they still look down on us) are now flocking to NASCAR and demanding races in their areas, a few years ago, they wouldn't be caught dead at one of our races! Your statement, that I have had "a few bad experiencies", really doesn't go very far in covering it. I have had nothing but bad experiences with open-wheel fans, the only exception to that rule being the above mentioned gentleman, Heeltoe6. He, for some reason, did not come out of the, in your words, "sterotypical" mold of the open-wheel fan. Maybe the problem is with the open-wheel fans in this country. Could it possibly be that it really is only an "American thing?" Seeing as the problems I've had have been with people from this country. Maybe open-wheel fans from Australia are not the rude, obnoxius jerks that the open-wheel fans in this country are. Again, we can only base our opinions, judgements, feelings, etc. on our experiences, and up until I met Heeltoe6, all of my experiences with open-wheel types have been bad. Placed in a simmilar situation, I would guess that anybody would come to the same conclusion that I have. Look, I don't have anything against you. You, personally, have never insulted me, so you don't fit the "mold". Until proven wrong, I'll exclude you from the "sterotype". We can agree to disagree on issues of racing and maybe have some good discussions if you like, but I'm very doubtful that you will be able to chance my opinion (not that you would want too) on open-wheel racing, or it's fans (maybe I should say here, fans from this (the U.S.) country. I am curious as to why you are disturbed at my comments. Is it because I feel this way, because you wonder what open-wheel fans have done to cause me to feel as I do, or because my feelings about open-wheel racing and it's fans are as they are? Would you please shed some light on this for me. It is 11:00 PM here, so I have to get to bed, I have an early morning ahead of me. I'll look forward to your reply tomorrow. Take care.

Lee

[Lee]

Crash Test,
I'm sorry that I do not have time to reply to your post this evening. My job demands that I get up very early in the mornings, if you read my reply to Marcus, you will see that it is 11:00 PM here, and I have a very early wake up call. I will respond to your post tomorrow, as time does not permit me to do so now. Until then, take care.

[Crash Test]

Like Marcus, Im from Australia.
Down here we have (had) Nascar for quite some time now. I think Marcus will agree with me here, down here you are either a dedicated tin top follower, or you are a motorsport follower (basically anything that moves). I dont know how to put this properly...around here we don't hate others. We have our petty quarels, but we all seem to be able to live side by side.

Ok, so you've told us where you are coming from, North Vs South. Ok, why don't you keep this to a political/racial(?) thing, and not let it blur your eyesight with respect to motorsport?

Looking again at the Australian situation, the people who are only Tin top supporters really only follow one class; V8 Superars. For the lay American, they are sort of like Nascar, V8 fuel injected family sedans, but they race on road and street circuits. They are popular because they make the best noise, have the star drivers, and have by far the most TV/media coverage.

For the rest of us, who follow all motorsport, we know that there are people who we don't like in the series. We know that there are problems with other, but we sit down and enjoy the racing all the same.

I could sit here and say "i hate all Americans", or "i hate dogs", or "i hate country and western music", but without experiencing it or knowing first hand what it is like, i am in no position at all to make a call, let alone say that i hate it.

Open your eyes sunshine, it is an almighty big world out there...

[marcus]

Lee,
I guess saying I was disturbed was a little excessive but your comments did strike a cord with me and thanks for not stereotyping me into your openwheel fan group.
I dont know much about the civil war and so i guess things run deep over there in the USA but the old adage Forgive and Forget should be used to bring the nation back together but that is not my concern.
Like crash said we have friendly sporting rivalries over here (Oh yeh crash NSW 1 QLD big fat 0)..hehehe...sorry sporting joke...but over here we (racing fans) just like racing and allthough Nascar is failing very badly here it is still racing and exciting to watch as is the local Formula Vee shootout on club days...I have a friend who hates bike racing and I love it but we can never agree on this but it doesnt make each of us hate each other.
Im not trying to change your opinion on anything allthough it would be nice to see you post in other forums but that of course is your choice. I would like to have some good conversations with you and hopefully we can ..you as a motorsport fan and me as a motorsport fan surely we can head in a direction that would be beneficial to both of us.
Do you feel that these tracks that want the races now will enhance the series ..i dont know who they are but surely it will help the series to grow and reach an even bigger audience which you have to admit is always a good thing for the sport.
all i can say is here at ten tenths we give eveyone and every class a fair go because we love motorsport full stop ..what you do in your own country is your business for sure but maybe here we could learn to get along and have fun at the same time..i dont get to see that many Nascar races due to lack of TV coverage here but when i do pop in this forum i hope we can chat as fans and not be considered one of those open wheel guys ..I treat you as an equal and expect the same in return so LETS GET ON WITH THE RACIN !!!!

[Crash Test]

"(Oh yeh crash NSW 1 QLD big fat 0)..hehehe...sorry sporting joke.."
-I will talk to you tomorrow about that....

[kmchow]

Lee wrote:

>Funny now, how many people from these same >areas (but as a general rule not the vast >majority of the open-wheel fans, they still >look down on us) are now flocking to NASCAR >and demanding races in their areas, a few >years ago, they wouldn't be caught dead at >one of our races!
>
The pessimist(??) in me has a simple answer to that question/comment. Money! Simply economics! By having a Nascar race, you get tonnes of fans coming to your city/town/whatever. These visiting fans bring in something called money. And money is what drives an economy and provides jobs. If I were a politician/business association, I would support Nascar as well. That's why I also support our city for having and hopefully fighting to hold onto a CART race. It's good PR, imagine, the city/town gets their name plastered, mentioned and talked about!! All that free advertising.

[doc]

NASCAR racing is boring compared to the formula 1 type racing....i mean in nascar they just go round and round...its a bit repetitive dont you think.....

[This message has been edited by doc (edited 24 May 2000).]

[TimD]

Lee, can I put in my own (British) word here? I too was not aware of the animosity between open-wheel and tin-top racing in the US. I will concede that a lot of Brits dismiss NASCAR and IndyCar, but when pressed, will admit that it's because they don't understand oval racing, period.

Case in point is my father, who will mutter darkly about "roundyrounders", but who sat riveted when I showed him the '96 Bud at the Glen!

As for me? Heck, it's motor racing, and I will watch all motor racing. I'm a real stats and archives junkie, and I can honestly tell you that I am glad I made the 6 year search for Fielden's 40 Years of Stock Car Racing, and the 5 editions of that fabulous NASCAR history sit proudly on my shelves next to the 10 volumes of Grand Prix results.

I, too, am on record as hostile to the IRL series, but that's because they have elevated to some of the toughest circuits and fastest cars in the world, drivers who would find it hard to make a convincing effort in a Busch race. Doesn't stop me watching!

So rest assured Lee, this is one Brit who likes his Grands Prix and CART, but who knows the difference between Yarbrough and Yarborough, has a blue and red STP 43 Plymouth in his display cabinet, was sorry when #33 Harry Gant hung up his helmet for the last time, and who is never happier than when the #24 Rainbow is steaming in pitlane as the #3 Goodwrench Chevy cruises to another win.

[Neil C]

Lee, by your standards, we shouldnt get along. I'm a yankee and an open wheel fan. But I've taken the occassion to defend oval, NASCAR and all types of racing, even drag racing.

I thoroughly enjoy all motorsports. Many here do.

If you want to enjoy yourself, you'll need to be able to handle those who will throw flame at you and your sport...and give it right back to them in a spirit of lively discussion.

Hatred should be reserved for the really evil things, Hitler, E-Bola viruses and Bernie Ecclestone ( )

Welcome to 10/10's, Go Mark Martin!

[Lee]

O.K. everyone, I am going to try to reply to everyone who has had a reply to what I've said above. Please understand that I have not ignored anyone, my job (Active Duty in the U.S. Armed Forces) demands a lot of time, and sometimes some unusual hours. I'll do this in a seperate post to each of you. I think that is the only fair way to do it. Please bare with me.

Lee

[Lee]

Neil C.
Greetings. You said "that according to my...we should be enemies." I don't really agree with that. I don't hate all Yankees, believe it or not, I have quite a few friends that happen to be from the North, they happen to be either stock car fans, or individuals that happen not to like racing. All that I can say is that the open-wheel fans that I have encountered in person have been rude, obnoxious, etc. They also happen to have all been either from the North, Midwest, or West Coast. Until I encountered the various replys on this forum, the only open-wheel fan that ever treated me in a friendly or civil manner was Heeltoe6, I met him on the "ThatsRacin" Stock Car Forum. Answer me honestly, reverse the circumstances, lets just say that you, as a diehard open-wheel fan, had been in a situation where everyone that you encountered (except for one individual) that was a stock car fan, called you dumb, stupid, retarted, inbred, because of the area of the country that your from, and the type of racing that you chose to like. Would you not develope, at the very least, an extreamly intense dislike for that form of racing, and the people that follow it? Being human, I would imagen that you would. Anyhow, If you have defended NASCAR, and not taken part in the senseless bashing of Southerners, and stock car fans, I thank you. I wish there were more of you around. Unfortunatly, up to the recently present times, that is not what I have experienced, and as I have stated, we can only go by our experiences. Look, I don't hate you, and won't unless you give me a reason to. I will enjoy discussing stock car racing with you on this, or any other forum you happen to be on. Please, just bare in mind that I have no use for open-wheel racing, and seeing that this particular forum on Ten-Tenths happens to be a NASCAR forum, that shouldn't be a problem. Agreed? At any rate, take care.

Lee

[Lee]

TimD,
I can understand your not realising the animosities between stock car racing and open-wheel racing fans in the U.S. I can also see how ignorance of NASCAR, or stock car racing in general, might cause the average British fan to dismiss our form of racing. Unfortunatly, ignorance is not the problem here in the States. Here, it is a simple case of one group of fans feeling that their opinions, form of racing, and areas of the country are superior to the afore mentioned of others that don't agree with everything that they say or beleive. The problem here is not one of ignorance, it is one of arrogance! It is quite sad, for them, because the damage has been done, and in many cases, is irreversable. Open-wheel racing is in serious trouble in this country, to say otherwise is to deny fact. They have very poor attendance and even poorer television ratings, Indy and maybe one or two other races being the exceptions to the rule. They need to put fans in the seats at the tracks, however instead of trying to attract fans, they run fans away with their arrogant attitudes toward other racing series, and the fans of other series. They have created enemies, not supporters. Ignorance can be overcome thru education, unfortunately, arrogance cannot. I'm sorry, but that's my take on this matter. By the way, many younger fans in this country do not know the difference between Yarborough and Yarbrough. I was fortunate to see them race a number of times. Nowdays, all these kids seem to know is Jeff Gordon. I, too, liked Harry Gant, he was a class act. I beleive Fielding has a couple of new volumes out. If you would like, the next time I go to North Carolina, I will stop at Darlington (I have to go past there enroute) and check on them for you. Let me know. I also proudly own the 40 years of NASCAR set, they are an exellent series. I also like vintage aircraft. My favorite is the World War II period. Favorite aircraft, the Chance Vought F4U Corsair. Well, take care.

Lee.

[Lee]

kmchow,
I have to agree with you there, money is the answer. Money, and the greed it causes are ruining racing!

[Lee]

Crash Test,
First, please understand this, I don't hate everything! The problems between North and South today have nothing to do with politics or racial discrimination. It is, as I told TimD in the post above, a problem of arrogance. Of one segiment of racing in America, open-wheel fans, going out of their way to insult, bash, start trouble with other series, primarly stock car fans. Don't believe me, then I invite you pick up a copy of the May 2000 issue of Racer magazine. Go to the "letters to the editor" section and read the letter from a Wayne Seixas. He, a F-1 fan, gives the typical open-wheel reply about NASCAR fans, calls us retarded, our form of racing stupid etc. This is in a national, possibably international publication. It is uncalled for, however it is the way that the vast majority (notice, I did not say all) of open-wheel (cart, irl, and F-1) in the U.S. are towards stock car fans, particularly those from the South. Now, he lives in Florida, a Southern state, odds are, however that he is a transplanted Northerner. A lot of Florida's population is. Now, answer me this, I'm just suspose to ignore this, and flock willing to watch their form or racing, when this attitude about me (I'm speaking figurativly here) abounds. I'm suspose to support this? I don't think so! I say "to H#ll with him, and his form of racing, be it cart, F-1 or irl. You know, Christ said to "turn the other cheek" if someone strikes you. He didn't say what to do if they strike you on that other cheek too, but in another place in the Bible, He also tells His disciples to sell everything they own, and "buy swords!" Look, I have nothing against you. You are quite lucky to live in a country that doesn't have the anamosity between different reagions of your country. Your fortunate that your country didn't go through a civil war, that ripped the very fabric of your country apart, that the effects are felt even some 200 years after the war ended. Where people don't look down on you because you happen to like a different form of motor racing than they like. I will also ask you to answer this question honestly, you are now a fan of a particular form of racing, I don't care what type it is. You have been following it since your childhood days. Now, as you grow older, and start to associate with people from other parts of your country, you are told that you are stupid, ignorant, inbred, retarted. Your family is insulted. Your told that what you enjoy is not real racing, that only fools compete in that type of racing, and that only a d@mn fool idiot would enjoy watching it. Now, you've heard this for some 30 to 40 years. Do you think that you just might get a little bit tired of it, might start to develope just a slight loathing toward it, and the people that follow it? I'd almost bet my next month's paychecks that you would! Anyhow, as I said, I don't have anything against you, to my knowledge you have not insulted me, made fun of my heritage, etc. I guess on this point, we will have to just "agree to disagree." You had, in an above post stated, "its a mighty big world out there." I am quite well aware of that fact since in the last 18 years of my life I have seen most of it! In closing, I'll say this, since the word hate seems to upset you so much, I'll not use it any more. In it's place I'll use this phrase, I have an "extreamly intense dislike" for open-wheel racing. How about that? By the way, that was not to be sarcastic. I see no reason to be sarcastic toward anyone. Hopefully, in the future, you and I can have some intresting discussions about stock car racing on this forum. At any rate, good luck, and good night.

Lee

[Lee]

Doc,
You said, "NASCAR racing is boring, not exciting like F-1,... all they do is go round and round..." or something to that effect. Well, I could not disagree with you more. I made the mistake of attending a F-1 race in 1996, and I can truthfully say that I have NEVER been more bored in my entire life! I could see the cars, really just a brief glimps of them when they were directly in front of me, no where else. There was no passing, just a follow the leader parade. Disgusted, I left before it was over, feeling that I had wasted the money I had spent. If that is you idea of exitement, more power too you. You and I have vastly different views on what constitutes excitement. I would much rather see the entire track, watch the leaders pass each other on the track, accually "race" one another. Give me NASCAR any day of the week over any other form of racing. Bare in mind, I am not saying that you are wrong to enjoy F-1 more than NASCAR, or any other form of racing, I'm just simply saying that your tastes in racing, excitement etc. happen to be vastly different from mine. Who's wrong, and who's right? No one, its just a matter of opinion. Good luck.

Lee

[Crash Test]

"you are now a fan of a particular form of racing, I don't care what type it is"
-Well i do have a favorite, and i only became aware of it 3 years ago. I am now personal friends with all of the drivers, so i guess that is the one where most of my interest lies. Saying that, i more often than not get more enjotment of of other forms of racing.

You seem to use the word arrogant a lot there. Ok, fair enough, you dont like people involved with open wheelers. What can i do? Nothing. What should i care? None.

Can i suggest to you the word ingnorance. Heres a tip, sit down and watch an open wheel race on tv. The commentators wont sit there insulting you, for family and your pet dog because you are a Nascar fan. Being a Nascar fan, you might be surprised by what you see, sometimes open wheel cars can put on a really good show. Watching it on tv all you see is the drivers helmets, and all you hear are the commentators commenting on what the cars are doing. That dont sit there insulting Nascar fans. None of that happens.

Go on, give it a go and come back and tell me how insulted you were by watching the race on the box.

IM sure you are a lovely person, but this seems to be a pretty big problem. I hope one day you open up your mind just a wee bit, you'd probably be a lot happier when that happens.

[Lee]

Crash Test,
I really can't see why you would think that I'm unhappy. Lets see, own a truck and car, a house, good paying job, pay the bills and have enough left over to see a movie or eat at a nice resturant, have quite a few friends, close friends, unfortunatly, don't see many of them too ofter, scattered all across the country, thank God for email and telephones. Yeah, wife left, and I'm divorced, job related, she couldn't put up with military lifestyle, although some would say that is a good thing, being divorced I mean. No, can say as I'm unhappy, just the opposite. You said that I should watch an open-wheel race on TV, said all I would see was helmets going by, and that the TV announcers wouldn't insult me, the family, etc. First, for some strange reason, I don't know why, but a helmet race doesn't even sound remotly intresting. I could just as easily walk into the local motorcycle shop
and run past the helmet rack and see that. I really don't think the announcers would insult anybody, they have their jobs to do, plus just exactly how long do you think the might be able to keep their jobs if instead of covering the race, they took to insulting the viewing audience? I'd bet my next month's paychecks, only a very short time! Look, I noted a hint of sarcasim in the two items in your post above, i.e. helmets going by and audience insulting TV announcers. That is why my reply has been somewhat along the same lines, up until this point. Now I'll turn serious. As mentioned to Doc, above, in my reply to his saying didn't I think that F-1 racing was more exciting than NASCAR racing, I attended a F-1 race live in 1996, and explained that, to me, it was the most boring time I'd ever had at a racetrack. It might very well suprise you to know that in the mid 70s I attended an open-wheel, Indy car event. It was either 1975 or 76, I really don't remember the year. It was held at Atlanta International Raceway, (long prior to the aquisition of the track by one O. Bruton Smith) sanctioned by USAC. This was long, long before cart or the irl was ever even thought of. It featured a USAC stock car race as well, sadly USAC folded their stock car division a few short years later. There were quite a few people in the stands that had followed the open-wheel cars down South from the North, and the Midwest, a sparce sprinkling of Southerners in the stands, but nowhere near as many as if it would have been a NASCAR race. Bobby and Donnie Allison, as well as a couple of other NASCAR drivers were entered, as the Grand National Division (now called Winston Cup) had an off week. The majority of the starting lineup was made up of the drivers that normally competed on the USAC stock car circuit, Don White, Butch Hartman, and Jack Bowsher were a few of the big names on that circuit at the time. There were also several Indy car driver pulling double duty that day as well. If I remember correctly, Bobby Allison won the race, which didn't sit too well with the open-wheel types in the stands. Now I know you don't want to here this, but there was the constant badgering from them, their usual B.S. "stupid rednecks", "dumb Southerners" etc. The track security guards stopped several potential fights from breaking out, they did quite a good job. Well, quite a few people got up and left after the conclusion of the stock car race, I'm sure some due to lack of intrest, but also others due to being fed up with the B.S. I decided to stick around and see just what was so great about these open-wheelers. Now remember, this was back when open-wheel drivers were household names in this country, names like Foyt, Unser, Rutherford to name a few. Unlike today, these drivers were well known through out the country. To borrow a rather foolish phrase that cart tried to peddle in 1996, these really were the "real cars and the real stars" of American open-wheel racing! Well, the race started, and seemingly was over a short time later. Things that I noticed, yes the cars were blazing fast, but there was very little passing, no side by side racing, nothing but a high speed parade. In short, it left alot to be desired as far as racing action goes. To this day, I could not tell you who even won the race. Based on the two open-wheel races that I attended, 1 Indy car, 1 F-1, I have come to this conclusion, Indy car races are boring, but they pale in comparism to F-1 races when talking about boring! Couple that with the "attitude", all I can say is, "thanks, but NO THANKS!" As to watching on the box, why would I want to watch a race, where I don't know (and don't care about) any of the drivers, or teams, a race that is boring to me, when in person, when I knew who the drivers were, I didn't care for? Besides, two other facts persist, first, most of the time these races take place, on another channel, at the same time as either a Busch or Winston Cup race, which I am not going to miss, and second, the cable box here at the house, is one of those kind that they use to determine viewership of various programs. If I watch a program, it is counted towards the ratings of that particular program, i.e. this particular event had a 1.7% rating. If you will remember, in one of the above posts, I stated that I would do nothing to support, promote etc. either one of the two open-wheel series either thru attendance of their events, or thru television ratings. To watch one would help it, that is something that I will not do! If you will also remember, this whole exchange resulted from a question ask by Joe Fan, as to why fans of various series could not get along. I answered his question as to why I felt that they could not, based on personal experience. If you don't like, don't agree with my answer, or my reasons as to why, so be it. You said that it was somewhat of a big problem, well yes, on that I will agree with you. The problem is simple, there are two racing series, in this country, that are in serious trouble. They both have very poor attendance at their events, with the exception of Indy, and maybe one or two others, and terrible television ratings. Because of the assinine attitude of a large majority of their fans, toward the fans of other racing series, the have damaged their ability to attract fans to their events, especially in the Southern states! This is a big problem, their problem. So, as stated in one of my posts above, on this issue, you and I will have to "agree to disagree." Neither you, or I are going to change our respective opinions, on this matter, so to continue this discussion further is pointless, therefore it is a closed issue. Good evening.