Homologation papers 1965 Corvette (number 187)

[rogerwills]

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the homologation papers for a 1965 Corvette? It is homologation number 187.

Regards,

Roger

[zefarelly]

call Marcus Pye at the MSA, for something Like £30 he'll send you a nice fresh copy from their archives

decided what you want then Roger ? ( massive oversteer and opposite lock capabilities !!!)

[rogerwills]

Yep, took the plunge. Car will be on a boat next week and as soon as it arrives the prep work starts. 1965 Corvette Coupe but quite a rare one as it is one of the interim year 396 cu in models between the small blocks and the big blocks.

Here it is......

[John Turner]

Nice one, Roger; well done! Look forward to seeing it out!

[zefarelly]

Monster! (puffs cigar) that looks like The Who in 1971 . . . . .LOUD!

Frank . . .have you got 1225 digitally?

[terence]

Excellent stuff,did you see what one recently sold for!,The big yanks are starting to catch up with house prices,but then you can sleep in a car.

[johnh875]

Fantastic looking car Roger!
ps 396 is a big block, just not a very big one lol, it grew into the 427 then 454

[rogerwills]

Yes, John, re 396 being a big block - I like to call it a small-big-block.

Actually the really interesting bit on the homologation form (and the main reason I was trying to get a copy) is that it says the following:

Capacity - 396 cu in
Maximum rebore 4.251 cu in
Resultant capacity - 427 cu in

My mechanic had said he remembered that the 396's were allowed to be rebored up to 427 on the original homologation form whereas a 1965 Corvette 427 was actually only homologated in Feb 1966 making it ineligible for period G.

So that was my objective buying this car - it is a 1965 homologated with 396 cu in but also homologated with a rebore up to 427 cu in.

I think it will be a monster!

Can't wait!!!

Roger

[simon drabble]

nor can I and am already starting a weight training programme down the gym! the 6 Hour is only 11 months away!!!!

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

nor can I and am already starting a weight training programme down the gym! the 6 Hour is only 11 months away!!!!

start by eating some food to put some weight on, the exhausts on that will blow you over

[Al Weyman]

396 is a big block, no interim, its either a big block or a small block and thats a Mk V big block! I could run a 396 legally in my yellow car but its so damned heavy why bother although I have been tempted!

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

396 is a big block, no interim, its either a big block or a small block and thats a Mk V big block! I could run a 396 legally in my yellow car but its so damned heavy why bother although I have been tempted!

is that why people run 327 instead? Is that a lot lighter?

[Al Weyman]

327 is a small block, great little short stroke configuration as it happens and I ran one for a short while I picked up for £150 when I blew an engine and it was a joy to buzz through the gears. It has the 4" bore ot the 350 and in escence is the same block but a .25" shorter throw crank. It weighs exactly the same as a 350 however less maybe a nominal amount less for the shorter stroke crank.

The early 5 litre as fitted to the Z/28 is even more of a screamer with the same 4" bore but a shorter throw crank and smaller big end journals, still same weight though so no advantage there. The latest 305 from the 70's onwards is not so good as features the long stroke crank of the 350 (3.5") but a smaller 3.75 inch bore, still over square and again essentially the same engine but will not bore out to 4".

So if you want lightness (in comparason at least to a Big Block Mk V) and power and remain legal then the best combo is a 350, if you want to cheat (perish the thought in history racing) and have lots of dough then use the 4.25 inch over bore on a Bowtie block which will easy go out to that as its siameased and the 3.5 inch crank and you end up with a BIG over square screamer at around 6 litres or you could go the whole hog and fit the 3.75" crank and hog it out to 6.6 as Rob (Racing 69) has in his Belmont, his is all alloy aftermarket block and heads to boot. You now know why I got so excited and out of my pram in Classic Thunder when someone entered a 6.6 as I know for a FACT that the configuration or the 6 litres in Historic racing is NOT possible with a STANDARD production block as required by the rules, sorry it has to be siamessed to go out to 4.25" to achieve this capacity and I have played with a few including 6.6's!

Unless of course you have loads and loads of dough then run in Group 2 configuration and fit a big block all alloy engine aka Frank Gardener 1971 Camaro Touring Car (just how did the get that through homogation with a production run of about 5 done in some backstreet garage, amazing).

Having said all that the Big Block Mk V even in an all iron configuration can produce some awesome power figures and one of the lads in the CTCRC has just converted his Mk2 Camaro to that spec so it will be interesting to see how my car compares with it next season although I will add mine is a budget project!

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Having said all that the Big Block Mk V even in an all iron configuration can produce some awesome power figures and one of the lads in the CTCRC has just converted his Mk2 Camaro to that spec so it will be interesting to see how my car compares with it next season although I will add mine is a budget project!

The problem Roger has is that he has to stay FIA pre 65 legal. Having said that the consensus seems to be that power should not be too much of an issue. So would you run a 327 or 396 given the choice (bearing in mind reliablity in longer races is as important as outright pace)

[pomracer]

I have copies of 3 different sets of papers, but before you get too excited I have just moved house so finding them may be difficult!
I skipped through this thread so forgive me if these points already covered:-.........and forgive me whilst I pull my anorak on, take a deep breath and..........
Basically 3 models of the Corvette (second generation, starting in 1963) were actually FIA homologated . General Motors Corvete production years ended in August/September, hence what the Americans may refer to as a "1965" vette or a "'66 bigblock" does not mean that those vehicles were 1965 or 1966 in FIA homologation terms...as we all know this is done on calendar year and 31st Dec cut off. SO...production of the 427 big block coupe commenced in August/Sept 1965 and sufficient numbers built to be homologated by 31st Dec 1965, so it does fall within Period F....and not G as someone has said I think.

The three models that were homologated , as far as I know , were:-

a) the 1963 coupe (the one with the split rear window, the original Stingray)) which was homologated with DRUM brakes and a SMALL BLOCK 327 ci engine,fuel injection.

b) 1965 ROADSTER (ie convertible) with DISC brakes and BIG BLOCK 396 cubic inch engine

and C) the ultimate:- 1965 COUPE with the 427 cu in engine.

The 396 and 427 have different block casting numbers, and if you read the books, there are differences in spec, (but fundamentally both are "big blocks" and fundamentally we are talking the same block.)
The ultimate racing engine, in period, was a version of the 427, so ideally you need correct casting number, ditto for the heads (cast iron of course) So if you want to go racing you want (b) or (C), but suggest (C) far better.
What you cannot do is use a small block engine bored and stroked out to 427 (7 litres) which , with a modern after market block (illegal in App K), rods and crank, is possible and readily available.

Yes there is a big weight and handling penalty versus small block engined cars.

BUT...from a racing point of view, as above (b) and (c) have different homologation papers, and you need to look closely at what actually was listed in each version. By memory (b) only had steel wheels and a few other bits and bobs, whereas the papers for (C) were far far better in that all the 'right' options were homologated including various different diff ratios, 7" aluminum rims, 36 gallon big racing fuel tank, transistorised ignition (YES it was in period), heavy duty suspension, front and rear anti roll bars ..blah blah blah....so I rest my case for (C)

I have run an FIA vette for 4 or 5 years now and researched it a bit before acquiring my car. There wer'nt any in UK back then, now everyone seems to be cottoning on - which is great. I guess that eligibility for Goodwood helps, plus of course they are relatively good value to run as a race car, bits are available etc
One of the problems I found early on was that most Corvettes that you saw were racing in Europe ( at Spa or say at the Oldtimer meeting)and they all seemed to have cherry picked the best bits from all three sets of homologation papers. You still see lots of vettes there with hoods (sorry chaps, I mean bonnets) from 1967 vettes which is incorrect....and there were a couple in Germany running hot small blocks. With FIA papers / HTP now being tightened up, there will inevitably be some cars which will fall off the list!!!
Whereas until recently I would suggest that the MSA were not too knowledgeable on Corvettes, now they are more in the limelight, the HTP inspctors are, shall we say, a little bit more clued up and will know when they are being hoodwinked.
Hope this is helpful. If I can find the sets of papers I will happily send copies to you.
Happy Christmas

[Jeremy Hall]

All the homologation papaers are available from the MSA at 25 pounds a set. The above posting seems to have got iy just about right. Menu cars are not acceptable and the German cars which have got under the radar are soon to be seen for what they are-lets say erroneous.
I think having some Corvettes out there will liven things up, but lets remind ourselves of history-GM did not want them racing and the Gran Sports which were meant to see the Cobra's off were stopped dead by the factory.

[terence]

I think it would be fun to have more Corvettes in the pit lane,R,E ,I remember one in a six hour with flames coming out of the carb during a driver change,the team tried to extinguish it with a hanky! .

[esper]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

All the homologation papaers are available from the MSA at 25 pounds a set. The above posting seems to have got iy just about right. Menu cars are not acceptable and the German cars which have got under the radar are soon to be seen for what they are-lets say erroneous.
I think having some Corvettes out there will liven things up, but lets remind ourselves of history-GM did not want them racing and the Gran Sports which were meant to see the Cobra's off were stopped dead by the factory.

Well thats one thing, but a well developed Stingray according the homologation papers of those days can still be a lethal race weapon. Weren't American racecars apart from Cobras (wich were part British anyway!) a little underdeveloped against there British/Italian/German rivals? It is not strange that we see wo many Mustangs, Stingrays etc in front these days. those cars have a lot of hidden potential. Historical correct, i am not sure? But against the rules, don't think so ???????

[Jeremy Hall]

Maybe someone should start a string about ''hidden potential'' and whether Historic Motor sport is about ''hidden potential.'' It does/will lead to some very dark corners.

[pomracer]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

All the homologation papaers are available from the MSA at 25 pounds a set. The above posting seems to have got iy just about right. Menu cars are not acceptable and the German cars which have got under the radar are soon to be seen for what they are-lets say erroneous.
I think having some Corvettes out there will liven things up, but lets remind ourselves of history-GM did not want them racing and the Gran Sports which were meant to see the Cobra's off were stopped dead by the factory.

Just picking up Jeremy's last comment - anyone who knows GM history will tell you that there was a very long period when officially, GM did not have a racing program, but unofficially, it did. Zora Duntov was a keen racer himself.There are dozens of articles and books out there, but perhaps the best known one is : " Chevrolet - Racing ? 14 Years of Raucous Silence"
written by an ex GM employee.This covers the development of the racing small and big block engines, etc etc ....how does anyone think Jim Hall got the Chapparal project going??? or Smokey Yunick with his engines.....Roger Penske was running a big block Corvette coupe at Daytona with a pre-production big block in period............ALL was with active factory support. Publicly it may not have been PC to have a racing programme, but behind the scenes they threw big money at it.
It was not just for the Corvette - from 1967 onwards the factory lent support to Penske in developing the Camaro...they had a car wired up to a GM factory computer...read "Unfair Advantage" by the late great Mark Donohue., its a good read and fascinating.
Finally , yes the Grand Sport was built to take on the Cobra's, and at the Nassau Grand Prix debut it was no coincidence that there were an extraordinary number of GM engineers on vacation in Nassua at the same time!!! - but the 'suits' at the top killed it off and stopped writing cheques. Carroll Shelby was a racer and understood what needed to be homologated....so todays Cobra FIA papers has just about everything you could have wished for...its a pity that corporate politics took over at GM back then.
Not that any of this helps you, as we are stuck with what was homologated.
Anyway thats enough anorak stuff.

[Jeremy Hall]

Sadly 523 only works for period G-1.1.1966 onwards;the paperwork situation is that cars always are classified in the 'Period' when they were homologated, and 523 did not start until February 1st 1966. Then you could not run a car until it was homologated, so FIA follows the logic.

[rogerwills]

Originally Posted by pomracer

The three models that were homologated , as far as I know , were:-

a) the 1963 coupe (the one with the split rear window, the original Stingray)) which was homologated with DRUM brakes and a SMALL BLOCK 327 ci engine,fuel injection.

b) 1965 ROADSTER (ie convertible) with DISC brakes and BIG BLOCK 396 cubic inch engine

and C) the ultimate:- 1965 COUPE with the 427 cu in engine.

It seems like Jeremy has answered the confusion here.

I think Pomracer's C above is not homologation #523 but really #187.

My understanding was that the 1965 car (homologation paper 187) was homologated with the 396 cu in engine but in the paper it says maximum rebore to 427 cu in. So a #523 homologation number car cannot run in Period F but a #187 can with either a 396 cu in engine or rebored up to 427 cu in.

Hence the reason I purchased this car.

A very interesting debate here. All I can say is that I am here for Historic Racing and while people have figured out how to make old technology work better, we should not move to having modern technology running unabated in old cars. I'm in New Zealand at present and the way the historic scene works here is not where we should be going in Europe (even though I'm a kiwi!)!

Roger

[Al Weyman]

Only my opinion of course but thats a hell of a lot of weight to have over the front wheels, maybe what another 120lbs or more over the 327 so from a handling and breaking aspect I would go for the 327. However from a pure grunt point of view the big block would win hands down in a straight line. So overall as you cannot run a 350 I would settle for the 396 and go and burn some rubber on those skinny little tyres because if nothing else it sure will be fun especially if you can run it as 427 as you will be getting close to 500bhp. I think Bernie uses a 350 and if you could thats what I would run as they are cheaper as well but go with what you have as you cant there are advantages and disavantages to both and may in the end be very circuit dependant on whats the best option.

PS I would say they would both be very reliable but maybe the big engine could have the edge.

[esper]

Interesting comments on the Corvette! ( a car I like a lot) But a big block vette stretching her legs on Cammel Straight..................must be realy awesome!

[rogerwills]

The 396s were 425hp from the factory. Mine was dyno'd at the rebuild at 435 and its bog standard. I reckon give it to a good builder and its good for 450-500hp with very little work.

The other good thing is that the papers for the 1965 Corvette 396 allow a rebore up to 427 cu in. This was also the first year to have 4 wheel disc brakes etc.

Roger