Brabham BT10

[Denis Lupton]

Andrew Fellowes has stuck me with an injection of enthusiasm,so I wondered
if I can start the ball rolling (for me) with the following ,
BT10 Chassis List
F2-1-64 Works Denny Hulme
F2-2-64 Works Jack Brabham
F2-3-64 Ford Austria Jochen Rindt
F2-4-64 Willment Autos Frank Gardner
F2-5-64 Jacques Maglia
F2-6-64 Jo Siffert
F2-7-64 John Coombes Graham Hill
F2-8-64 Works Jack Brabham
F2-9-64 Ford France Jo Schlesser
F2-10-64 David Prophet
F2-11-64 Ocura Trading (Japan)
F2-12-64 Cosworth Mike Costin
F2-13-64 Midland Racing Various
F2-14-64 George Oliver
F2-15-64 Prince Motor Co. (Japan)

Also have a car for Baldyne Eng. Denis O'Sullivan, but not sure on number.
Maybe this can start some discussion on these Brabhams,the first of the
1000 cc F2 cars from Jack and Ron.
Regards Denis

[allenbrown]

Welcome Denis. About time you participated directly!

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Think that 14 might have been the O'Sullivan car; he has one late season, runs it 1965 and perhaps early 66 for Dave Walker.
Geoff Oliver's 1966 car is described by MN 26.1.67 p.2 as ex O'Sullivan, and retained 1967.
Mystery 1964 car is that of Bruno Deserti, which seems to be retained 1965 and then taken to the 1966 Temporada by Carlo Facetti. Is this the Maglia car, which F1R notes as being used by Bill Bradley in 1965/66??

1965 and after
1: Lucas: Piers Courage (F1R notes 18.9); 1966: Mike Keens [ex Courage" AS 3.2.67] F1R notes 13.11
2: Charles Lucas: Jonathan Williams (Peter Gethin F1R notes 18.9)
3: Moss: Charles Crichton-Stuart [F1R notes 31.1]; 1966 Robin Darlington [ex Crichton Stuart AS] (sold June 67)
4: Willment: Paul Hawkins
5: Prophet: Bill Bradley/Bruno Deserti; 1966 Prophet: Bill Bradley
6: Unknown but see the Davies car
7: Lucas: Peter Gethin/Charles Lucas [F1R notes 3.4]; P&M: For sale A/S 17.11.67 with chassis no
8: Normand: Mike Beckwith
9: Ford France: Jo Schlesser; 1966: Ford France: Guy Ligier
10: David Prophet to 1966
11: Unknown
12: Cosworth: Mike Costin [F1R notes 18.9] retained to end 1967; 1968: Jones: Chris Meek [MN 2.1.69 p.15 ex Costin]; 1969: John McDonald [SEA] MN 13.3.69 p. 21
13: Midland Racing to 1967 [including Ahrens 1965??]
14: Baldyne: O'Sullivan; 1966: Geoff Oliver [MN 26.1.67 p.2 ex O'Sullivan]; 1967: Geoff Oliver
15: Unknown

Problem cars:
Martin Davies has a BT10 1965-66 which then goes to Dave Morgan. Unless a car comes back from Japan or there is a 1965 BT10 this must surely have been the ex Siffert car
John Peterson has a one off appearance in 1965
Is this the John Patterson who has a BT10 in 1966?
Hans Christian Legarth has one in 1966
Andrea de Adamich has one in 1967 [ex Deserti?]
John Peake [1967] maybe the Darlington car which is for sale then
Curt Erwin (FC) 1968
Neil Hansen [FC] 1968

Chris

[Denis Lupton]

Martin Davies car poses an interesting question.
Like all BT10's and all tube chassis following on,this chassis was a short chassis,finishing in front of the driveshafts. The problem I have with this particular car is it had AM 24 in the appropriate place.I have been in touch with Martin,he say's at the time he was working at Hewland, and had been at MRD doing some work on their Mk 7 (6 speed,s) and asked Jack if there was anything available.Jack sold him a frame and some bit's and pieces, he sourced the rest at various broker's and, had a car.
Now, my problem is,Arch motors number on a BT10 ?
These frames were built by Progress Engineering and/or Racing Frames.
So, I believe that Martin's car was a BT15 frame and suspension,BT10 body
and assorted other bits. Martin has sent me some terrific detailed period photos,and after much study and having F3-11-65 to compare against,
I think I,m right.Also,Martin always called it AM 24.

[Bryan Miller]

F2-12-64,

This car was advertised at www.nvo.com/brabhams on the 2nd of October this year for sale by John McDonald after having owned it all this time , complete with 3 Cosworth Fva's, was sold within about 10 days , new owner unknown at the present.

Bryan.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

F2-12-64,

This car was advertised at www.nvo.com/brabhams on the 2nd of October this year for sale by John McDonald after having owned it all this time , complete with 3 Cosworth Fva's, was sold within about 10 days , new owner unknown at the present.

Bryan.

I found this,

1969 A/S Jan 10th p.42 Costin Brabham for sale. FVA etc.,

and thats when John McDonald bought the car so I assume its F2-12-64 that the ad refers to.

[Chris Townsend]

Denis [and Allen, David McKinney et al]
So would we be correct in describing the Davies/Morgan car as:
Brabham BT10/15 [AM24]-MAE and separating it out from the Brabham built cars?

The other problem car that might then have been Siffert's is Legarth's, which he also appears with in 1965.

Chris

[Bryan Miller]

F1R fact book, season 1966 ,
page 184 , Les Leston F3 Championship at Brands Hatch 27-12-1966 ,

nominal entry number 21 , David Morgan [ DRJ Morgan] Brabham BT15 / Ford.

Chassis number notes list this car as AM24 , along with # 9 John Ralph BT15 , AM 25 , also # 22 Craham Coaker , BT15 AM 94.

Bryan.

[Denis Lupton]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

F1R fact book, season 1966 ,
page 184 , Les Leston F3 Championship at Brands Hatch 27-12-1966 ,

nominal entry number 21 , David Morgan [ DRJ Morgan] Brabham BT15 / Ford.

Chassis number notes list this car as AM24 , along with # 9 John Ralph BT15 , AM 25 , also # 22 Craham Coaker , BT15 AM 94.

Bryan.

Regarding Repco Brabham BT15 F3-11-65,AM 25, John Ralph raced this car Iate '65,'66 and '67,achieving some success later in these years.When finally getting to the pointy end of the field,he had a bad accident at Rouen les Essarts,badly crushing his chest
and other injuries.He was rushed back to England to hospital,and the car sent back to MRD for repair,s.The chassis was replaced with AM 147,and the car repaired, ready for John after his recuperation. THen,sold on to various owner,s, including Brian Jordan,then to Robin Dunbar in Ireland,and on to
me, still with Chassis plate, F3-11-65 and AM147 in place.
Confirmation of this brief history was from Duncan Rabagliati and Paul Sheldon, Rev. Stephen Ralph,( John,s brother),and Brian Jordan, also
George Thornton. There are plenty of Magazine record's of the car's history available.the accident is recorded in A/S July 14, 1967 p68.
Regards Denis

[Chris Townsend]

Sorry not making myself wholly clear here:
Whereas the Ralph and Coaker cars might be factory built BT15s that had lost their plates [and we still have to determine this] the Davies car is built on a BT15 frame, but wouldn't have carried a factory plate.
I'm including the BT10 in the description to emphasise the hybrid status of the car

Chris

[allenbrown]

Difficult issue - especially as the BT14/15/16 frames were effectively identical. It's a 1965 Brabham and I suppose BT15 is closer than anything. So it's more a BT15/10 than a BT10/15, given that the frame and suspension are BT15-ish and only the body is BT10.

As the frame was at MRD and not at Arch, it's less likely to be a used frame.

To be frank, my system can't cope with this one

I think I prefer Brabham BT15/10 [AM24]-MAE

Allen

[Bryan Miller]

The only thing that says it is a BT10 is the the entry from long ago as I see it.

Really it should be listed as BT15[AM24] BT10/in period.

[Simon Hadfield]

Allen -not so- the three frames are really quite different around the engine bay. The problem is that the obfuscators have declared 15s as14s etc and muddied the waters!

[Simon Hadfield]

And dont get me started about calipers, disc sizes, instruments etc. I actually have an original MRD sales pamphlet for the 14 15 16 range!

[allenbrown]

Hi Simon

My understanding was that the BT15 had a bolt-in frame to hold the MAE but that they were otherwise the same. I'd taken this to mean that the frames arrived from AM the same and would then be built up as required. Is this not the case?

Any chance of a copy of that pamphlet?

Allen

[allenbrown]

Denis has reminded me () that he sent me a spec sheet on these cars earlier this year. The main differences are:

BT16 - SCA, Hewland Mk 7, 1300 series driveshafts, 18 gallons held in two side tanks

BT15 - MAE (or Holbay R65), Hewland Mk 6, 1100 series driveshafts, 7 gallon seat tank

BT14 - twin cam, Hewland Mk IV (optional Mk 5), 1300 series driveshafts, 7 gallon seat tank

Wheels and chassis dimensions are the same. Simon has volunteered (I think that's the right word!) to help me recognise the minor chasis differences around the rear but he's confident that the frames had to be made slightly differently by AM.

I'll copy these details to the other three threads.

Allen

[Denis Lupton]

One BT10 I forget to mention(when they're under your nose you tend to overlook them) is Greg Cusack's car.Greg raced BT6, FJ-15-63, very successfully 1963-64 ,and the last Gold Star event of the year at
Warwick Farm was the Sam Hordern Trophy.Cusack finished 2nd outright
behind Leo Geoghegan's Lotus 32,both car's under 1500cc against the best
2.5 litre cars,a terrific result.And for the next Warwick Farm meeting,
Feb 2 65,a Tasman round, Cusack had a surprise,a BT10 T/C,chassis number
IC-6-64.In this event and the next two,Sandown and Longford,he appeared to be settling in,then for the Tasman Lakeside 99,he and the car were on song,5th outright and 1st under 1500.The car then continued on,always amongst the fastest in the country,though at times fragile.Sold to Don McDonald in NZ.
Cheers Denis

[Denis Lupton]

It's interesting how some car's can be successful over a period,even in different formula. The work's BT10's, F2-1-64 and F2-2-64,very competitive
in 1964,also F2-7-64, the Coombes/Graham Hill car, were obtained by Charles
Lucas,less engines and gearboxes,for 1965. But instead of the original F2 class usage,the 3 cars were now destined to race in F3.Looking at the records of the '65 season,they were very competitive,with Piers Courage,
Jonathan Williams,Peter Gethin,and Charlie Lucas himself steering the cars to a very successful season. Obviously,good mechanic's, thoughtful preparation,
and being well driven,play a large part,but try to find many other car's that make a successful transition to another Formula,and still be at the pointy end of the new Formula,and the BT10's are in a select group.
I wonder where they all are now?
Denis

[Alex E]

Not sure if this is the best place for this but seems like the best option....
I have recently been discussing the history of the car purchased from Brabham by BMW with a friend who looked after the archive at BMW for many years. In BMW`s photo archive the car is always described as one of the three BT-7`s but I noticed on Allens oldracingcars website that he mentions that the suspension does not look like a BT-7.
BMW bought the car for some world record attempts fitted with a two litre four cylinder Apfelbeck engine, interestingly the man that did the work on the car always described it as an F2 car on internal documents and in his book. Years ago my friend wrote to Sir Jack asking him about this F1 car, his reply just said `this was never an F1 car` but no indication as to what it was.
The car arrived at BMW in December 1965 apparently in very used condition. There has never been any mention of a chassis number as BMW put their own number on it. The obvious thing would be to try and find the original chassis number which I am working on but exactly where would this be located ?
We are thinking now that this is actually a BT10 F2 car...and it seems that not all of these are accounted for...any help appreciated...Alex.

[David McKinney]

Denis
Are you sure Cusack's second car was a BT10 numbered IC-6-64?
That's certainly what I always thought, having noted the c/no when the car arrived in NZ and working backwards from there that it must have been a BT10.
I've seen it referred to in NZ as a BT9, BT14, BT15 and BT16 as well as BT10, so I'd be delighted for confirmation that your info is from a pre-NZ source. Yes?

[Denis Lupton]

David
This number is quoted from personal observation,as I attended Warwick Farm
in February,1965, and still have my notebook from the '60's.I used always to go to the scrutineering bay's,photograph the car's and talk to the driver's and mechanic's,looking at relevant marking's. Never thought that 40 year's later I'd still be looking at them.Went to nearly all Tasman event's in OZ.
At this event,spoke to Bruce Burr, Greg Cusack's mechanic, who was very proud of the new BT10.
Regard's Denis

[Andrew Fellowes]

Greg Cusack's IC-6-64 , BT10 , Warwick Farm pit lane , Bryan has had photo for centuries , unknown source for credit. Date unknown , however probably 1965 , car carries much flatter front nose/cockpit bodywork that earlier BT6 / BT9 types.



posted for Bryan, sorry for the size, mac i-photo won't let me enlarge it for some reason.

[allenbrown]

F2-5-64
Autosport 11 Sep 1964 p399 says that David Prophet "now has two F2 Brabhams having swapped his Lotus 32 for Frenchman Jacques Maglia's Brabham".

[Chris Townsend]

That would probably be Lotus 32 F2-6 which F1R gives for Maglia in 1965

Chris

[Angus Lamont]

Just to let all know that John Macdonald's Brabham BT10 was not sold. He still has it in his garage and I'm paying him a visit in a couple of months to help him finish getting it into running order.