GP bikes and World Superbike

[torsion_bar]

i'm new around here and this is my first post.

i'm also new to motorcycle racing.

so, i see stuff about GP bikes and Kenny Roberts and Alex Criville, and i've also been introduced to world superbike and the likes of Haga and Fogarty.

what are the in and outs of each series and which one is more prestigious?

are they both sanctioned by the FIM and is the FIM an analog of the FIA?

[Redneck]

Welcome torsion_bar!

The F1 bikes are probably still considered more prestigious and is sanctioned by the FIM which is part of the FIA/Bernie Ecclestone show. F1 bikes have been around for decades and the riders have always been considered "cream of the crop" and the bikes have no basis on any production motorcycles. They are limited to 500cc 2-stroke engines and have for years created the best horsepower-to-weight ratios. They are one-of-a-kind produced in very few numbers at a cost of about $1 million. Many of them go to the crusher at the end of the season. I have been trying to get a job running the crusher. Hope they don't weigh the scrap.

The World Superbikes are relatively new. While superbikes have been in America and other countries for years, the WSB only started up about 15 years ago. Those bikes are based on production bikes and thus must meet homolagation rules. Which means that a production version must be available in quantities based on the total volume of bikes sold by the manufacturer in the country it is homolagated in. That leaves a little bit of a loop hole for manufacturers. Harley-Davidson wanted to begin superbike racing in the USA and built the VR1000. They really didn't want to build a production line to build it thus they homolagated it in Poland. Harley doesn't sell many bikes in Poland and thus only had to build a hand full of bikes to meet the rules. Most manufacturers bikes are based on mass produced bikes like the Suzuki GSX-R750. The World Superbikes has seen tremendous success over the past few years and is gaining in status. IMHO the WSB has been putting on a much better show for the past few years and the crowds have shown it.

The FIM has been feeling the pressure of the popularity of WSB and has changed some rules recently. Next year 1000cc 4-stroke bikes will be allowed to compete against the 500cc 2-strokes. There is a lot of debate these days as to how well this formula will work.

I hope this makes things a little clearer. Feel free to ask any other questions. Many here will be glad to educate you or we will just make something up.

[torsion_bar]

thank you, Redneck

that cleared up a lot.

[White Van Man]

Thank you for that Redneck - it cleared up some questions I had too...

[elephino]

I couldn't have put it better myself.

Welcome torsion_bar, have a look around and keep asking questions. Everyone here is happy to answer.

[Lazy Boy]

I would agree with all that except for one thing... a minor difference in terminology.... there has never been a class of motorcycles called F1, or F1 racing.

It is called Grand Prix Roadracing... Or GP ... as in GP bikes.

There was once a class called F750... which was created after the TZ700/TZ750's came out for American roadracing (which was not limited to 500's like the GP bikes) and had no class in the rest of the world... but that was relatively short lived and faded away and was essentially replaced by the coming about of Superbikes.

But there has never been a class of bikes called F1... though the rules of GP racing are quite similar to F1 cars and it is a commonly misused name.

[Redneck]

I will double check my sources, but stateside we have always had F1, F2, and F3 (500cc, 250cc, 125cc respectively)

[Lazy Boy]

......Wow.... you have jogged my memory!!!!!!
I'm sorry, I think you are at least partly right.
In the US there was a time when we had F1 (I would say from about '74' to '82')
But it was never limited to 500cc. It was 750cc

AMA RR Nat. before F1 I think were called Class C
(Based on production bikes)

Don Emde won Daytona on TR350 Yamaha (R5 350)
Dick Mann won Daytona on a CR750 Honda (CB750)
Art Baumann won Ontario (CA) on TR750 Suzuki (Water Buffalo)
Whoa.. I am having fun now!
Kel Carruthers won AMA Nat. RR's on TR350's
Gary Nixon and Gene Romero won AMA Nat. RR's on Triumph 650 Twins and 750 Triples
Cal Rayborn won Nat.s on HD KR750's and XR750's

Then Formula 1 and Superbike were created "74"? and almost all the F1 races were won on TZ750's for all those years. (though Suzuki and I think Kaw H2R's competed for a while)
Kenny Roberts and many others Singleton, Baker, Baldwin, won almost all those AMA F1 Nationals on TZ750's. (Roberts to Europe in 77)

While Reg Pridmore won the first Superbike Title on a BMW 750, then I think Cook Neilson won the next on a Ducati 750, both those guys were battling Kaw Z1's.

The F750 class (basically all TZ750's) was created for the rest of the world with Steve Baker and others (Graeme Crosby?, Johnny Cecotto?)winning those titles. The World F750 didn't last very long...4 years? (maybe 76 to 80 ?)

Then F1 was abolished in the US (82?) and Superbike was established as the premier class at AMA RR Nationals.

Wow ....hey Redneck.... thanks for jogging my memory!.... I read your post and started to think about the old days and slowly began to recall all that old stuff...... that was a lot of fun!.... I didn't look in a book for any of that... how did I do?

For you young guys ... sorry if you never heard of all that old stuff.

Yes there was a Formula 1..!!
Just slap me around when I screw up like that.

[Sergei]

You are mixing up the terms. The F1 and GP are completely different. One thing is the F1 (U.S. Natonional Championship??) and other thing is the World Road Racing Championship, called this season MotoGP, (two years before was known as GP500), in the MotoGP Championship there wasn't be any F1 class, and never had 750cc bikes, in the history of this Championship the only classes were 50cc, 80cc, 125cc, 250cc, 350cc, and 500cc.
MotoGP is the most prestigious Motorcycle Championship in the World.
MotoGP has no relations with FIA/Bernie Ecclestone show, the MotoGP Championship is promoted by DORNA Promociones del Deporte, a Spanish company. FIA and FIM are two different international federations, with no relations between they.


If you want to know about the MotoGP Regulations, and about the participation onit of the four stroke bikes (maximun of 990cc, not 1000cc) visit www.500motogp.com/ENG and click the following links:
2000 MotoGP Rules
2002 4 stroke rules

[Sergei]

You are missundertoding the terms. The F1 and GP are completely different. One thing is the F1 (U.S. Natonional Championship??) and other thing is the World Road Racing Championship, called this season MotoGP, (two years before was known as GP500), in the MotoGP Championship there wasn't be any F1 class, and never had 750cc bikes, in the history of this Championship the only classes were 50cc, 80cc, 125cc, 250cc, 350cc, and 500cc.
MotoGP is the most prestigious Motorcycle Championship in the World.
MotoGP has no relations with FIA/Bernie Ecclestone show, the MotoGP Championship is promoted by DORNA Promociones del Deporte, a Spanish company. FIA and FIM are two different international federations, with no relations between they.



If you want to know about the MotoGP Regulations, and about the participation onit of the four stroke bikes (maximun of 990cc, not 1000cc) visit http://www.500motogp.com/ENG and click the following links:
2000 MotoGP Rules
2002 4 stroke rules 2002

[Lazy Boy]

I didn't mix up anything....... the guy above me mentioned F1... and I told him there was no such class.... he then said that the US has always had a F1.... which is not true... the US had F1 for only about 8 years back from about 74 to 82.

But he was mixing them up, as you said, the World Championship stuff was always referred to GP, and then World Superbike was added,

There was a F750 World Championship there for a while though. You are just too young to remember it... it was from about 77 to 82.

World Championship racing has never been F1 though, except in cars.

And the Terrm MotoGP is just a commercial term... like advertising...... It will be referred to most people as World GP racing for a very long time regardless of who owns the business rights to it or what "they" name it... I will not refer to it as MotoGP no matter what they say... if they changed the name to something else the year after that would you keep changing what you call it?...... It is World GP to me.

[elephino]

I think MotoGP has been brought in because of the new regs which allow for greater than 500cc capacity. As in general it has been refered to as the 500cc World Championship (or Grand Prix). Possibly also to include all 3 (125, 250, 500) classes in the one title.

[Redneck]

Originally posted by Lazy Boy
[BArt Baumann won Ontario (CA) on TR750 Suzuki (Water Buffalo)[/B]

You mean that old piece of shyte actually won a race???

[dododo]

Just a little note in this discussion "about them ol' days" They also use the term GP1, GP2, GP3 for 500, 250 and 125cc GP racing.

Does anybody know who holds the speedrecord for bikes on Daytona?

Always there to confuse you,

Marc

[Lazy Boy]

By 'speed record' for bikes do you mean top speed recorded by radar down the longest straigt?... or fastest average lap?

In either case I can't help you.... but you might find that info on a Daytona Speedway web site... if there is one.

I seem to remember Barry Sheene was recorded at 175 mph top speed way back when on one of them "old pieces of ****" TR750 triples right before he crashed at that speed.

But don't quote me on that.
Always there to lend no help.

[dododo]

Just wondering if someone knew since the replies show that you all know a lot about "them ol' days".
I was talking about topspeed and you are right in that it was a 2 stroke. A TZ750 but i'm not sure. just to scare you, topspeed was somewhere between 220 and 235 mph! Must have bin somewhere between '73 and '76 by a dutch guy called Rob Bron. Crazy!

marc

[Lazy Boy]

Oh yeah... I don't doubt the top recorded speed was 220 or more... but I would think it might have been later than '76', they were running TZ750's there till probably '83' (just a guess) with some of the Yamaha Factory bikes being TZ500 GP bikes with "bore kits" on them up to 640cc (Roberts , Lawson, ?) but remembering exact details is hard to do.

Superbikes took over in about '84'.

Rob Bron still runs a race shop over there and has a lot of old GP bikes and parts and services available.

You would think the all time bike top speed would be in Daytona's media guide or maybe on a web site.

I bet Barry Sheenes 175 on an old Suzuki water buffalo was scarier than anything that came later...that was back in 72 or 73... and you know that tires and chassis were pretty crude then.... and in fact it was a tire that blew at 175 that put him in a body cast for while... that's why that's the only one I remember.

[dododo]

I remeber the brakes of those waterboilers. Come to think of it, not shure if they where brakes :-). But you're right it all must have been scary on those machines.
Rob Bron lives 5 minutes away. Always recognizable by that bold head in a very very bright yellow Renault Espace.

I searched the internet but didn't find anything about topspeeds and daytona. I'll try again.

De groeten
Marc

[Lazy Boy]

What is the English translation of "De Groeten".... "the geeting"?... or "goodbye"?

I have a friend who's last name is... De Groote.... is their an origin or meaning to his name?.... especially if I could make fun of him for it.

[dododo]

I'm surprised. If thou are not of Dutch origin, how come thou knows Rob Bron? Fascinating.

"De groeten" translated literally means greetings but in English sounds more official then it is in Dutch. Remember Sean Connery: "Greetings Highlander".

"De Groote" can be the same as the Great in Alexander the Great but could easily go as "the big one" or "the big.." (fill in anything that comes to mind/naturally/is appropriate)
But I'm sure his name refers to the build of his ancestors.

[Redneck]

Because of the chicane on the back straight at Daytona, I doubt anyone will ever come close to that speed during a race. A couple of years ago, I believe it was Troy Corser, was testing tires on a Ducati and was clocked at somewhere around 205 on the front straight. For shytes and giggles, he skipped the back chicane and held it WFO. The rear tire began chunking soon afterward.

[dododo]

RN
It wasn't a race and I thought they later changed daytona but I maybe all wrong. Maybe I should visit Rob Bron again because from what i remember he had a sort of template hanging on the wall with his topspeed. He showed me pictures from Daytona with him and his buddies in gold colored(!) leather suits.

For the old wardogs amongst you:
I have got an old Gp guide from '74 with some nice old pictures from a.o. daytona. It has some American race names in it like Mark Brelsford, Dick Mann, Cal Rayborn, Art Baumann, Cliff Carr, Don Emde, Jody Nicholas, Gary Nixon.
Being 10 years in 1974 i haven't got a clue who they are but maybe they do ring a bell with you guys.

I would like to attach some pics but i don't think it's possible. Specially a spectacular picture of Mark Brelsford coming out of a ball of fire at daytona is very nice.

[elephino]

There are intructions in the FAQ about posting pics (hope there is something there ). If you have problems, send me an email or ask another moderator.

[dododo]

as i read the faqlist they refer to a ubb code>
[IMG]webadress[/IMG]. They want you to fill in the webadress where the images are. Well, they are on my harddisk. Any suggestions are welcome

ave en weg ermee
marc

[Crash Test]

Hackers would love a diect link to your hard drive

You have to upload them to a webpage, in .jpg or .gif form. For some webspace try http://www.fortunecity.com or http://www.angelfire.com etc