Red Bull Ring - Track Limits

[steve_r]

After the last couple of years where there were literally hundreds of track limit violations, it looks like a solution has been found to hopefully avoid a repeat.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...T3HHpwuEJ7PoHw

Gravel Strips and some blue lines. For me it was easier to understand looking at a photo.



I hope that this is a solution that works.

[chillibowl]

question is, does this then hurt or help RBR!

[S griffin]

TBH, I have no idea how it play out. This could be a tricky weekend for all of them

[bjohnsonsmith]

On the whole the changes to the track seemed to work. Unfortunately for Oscar Piastri he got caught out.

[chillibowl]

Now that safety is less of a concern in F1, I had thought the lack of gravel had more to do with ensuring that small mistakes don’t result in cars getting beached forcing the race to be neutralized for extended periods while the car is removed?

The unintended consequence of their removal was then so so many track limit violations.

Which through better enforcement and solutions like what they have here now being preferred to bringing back the gravel now being preferred. I was surprised though that imola (I believe) had brought back gravel though we did see some offs there that were not great.

Not sure if there is a clear cut answer?

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Now that safety is less of a concern in F1, I had thought the lack of gravel had more to do with ensuring that small mistakes don’t result in cars getting beached forcing the race to be neutralized for extended periods while the car is removed?

The unintended consequence of their removal was then so so many track limit violations.

Which through better enforcement and solutions like what they have here now being preferred to bringing back the gravel now being preferred. I was surprised though that imola (I believe) had brought back gravel though we did see some offs there that were not great.

Not sure if there is a clear cut answer?

Race stoppages are a part of the race as anything else. Luck is part of the sport, deal with it and the resulting strategy gambles?

Not sure why strategy and race interruptions have anything to do with safety discussions tbh, but then I've spent all week arguing the same thing on various forums when Indycar have their dangerous policy of leaving a driver stranded on a live race course so they can allow the leaders to cycle through their pit stop strategy, THEN throw the full course yellow period for the danger.

I'd rather a race with 4 SC interruptions than one continually interrupted by track limits penalties.
At least the SC has the side effect of making the races more exciting, hearing a driver has picked up a 5/10 sec penalty has the exact opposite.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Now that safety is less of a concern in F1, I had thought the lack of gravel had more to do with ensuring that small mistakes don’t result in cars getting beached forcing the race to be neutralized for extended periods while the car is removed?

The unintended consequence of their removal was then so so many track limit violations.

Which through better enforcement and solutions like what they have here now being preferred to bringing back the gravel now being preferred. I was surprised though that imola (I believe) had brought back gravel though we did see some offs there that were not great.

Not sure if there is a clear cut answer?

I think it was multiple reasons. Both safety and also for the reason you mention (commercial). While you can say that stoppages are part of racing, it doesn't help the "show". Same for retirement of drivers. It doesn't help when fans show up and their favorite driver is out as he is stuck in gravel and can't rejoin.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I think it was multiple reasons. Both safety and also for the reason you mention (commercial). While you can say that stoppages are part of racing, it doesn't help the "show". Same for retirement of drivers. It doesn't help when fans show up and their favorite driver is out as he is stuck in gravel and can't rejoin.

Richard

There are some who might say that a few retirements here and there actually does spice up the show, especially if they affect the inevitability of the outcome. Bulletproof reliability has been one of the major factors which has adversely affected the show IMO.

[Aysedasi]

It doesn't have to be.

[Sodemo]

Its kinda what a lot of people have been saying for years.

I would still prefer it if they had pure gravel all the way up to the barrier, but you have to concede in some areas. A small win I think.

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Its kinda what a lot of people have been saying for years.

I would still prefer it if they had pure gravel all the way up to the barrier, but you have to concede in some areas. A small win I think.

I tend to agree with you. I think gravel traps were far better than run offs. The only problem with gravel was retrieval of cars. Made marshalling more awkward and having to use snatch vehicles, but that was the good old days of F1.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

I tend to agree with you. I think gravel traps were far better than run offs. The only problem with gravel was retrieval of cars. Made marshalling more awkward and having to use snatch vehicles, but that was the good old days of F1.

There were other problems.

Significant car damage and gravel being showered at high speed into pedestrian areas being two.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Its kinda what a lot of people have been saying for years.

I would still prefer it if they had pure gravel all the way up to the barrier, but you have to concede in some areas. A small win I think.

I agree. But let's see how it works in practice. What is clear is that they could not continue as it was before.

[Aysedasi]

The pedestrian issue I can certainly sympathise with. Car damage? Not really, if the drivers kept to track limits they wouldn't damage the cars. Simples.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Car damage? Not really, if the drivers kept to track limits they wouldn't damage the cars. Simples.

I agree, but it's still a problem to the teams...

[Aysedasi]

Well, if the drivers keep on doing it, yes.....

[codename_47]

I think it's time the FIA realised full gravel traps are not the scary thing they once were

Now we have fully strong roll bars backed up by the halo, rollover accidents are not to be feared as much as they used to be (and tbh are a good way to dissapate energy compared to side on impacts with barriers) and make the track a lot safer in wet conditions, where tarmac runoff completely lacks
(Also in the cases of brake failure/stuck throttles too)

Gravel also saves us from this track limits debacle that has plagued the sport in recent years too, a win win tbh

The improvements to the Red Bull Ring are a good start, now they just have to fill in the rest of the runoff behind this gravel strip too

[chavez]

Originally Posted by codename_47

I think it's time the FIA realised full gravel traps are not the scary thing they once were

Probably slightly scarier on a motorbike.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by chavez

Probably slightly scarier on a motorbike.

They are going to dig up the gravel traps and lay tarmac before the Moto GP round in August.

[flatlandsman]

Not really, a gravel trap on a bike is fine if it is level and not steeply raked, obviously this is an issue as level for anything means you just skate. The only issue with gravel and bikes is tumbling and your limbs sticking into the ground.

Track limits is an issue with bikes, but less so than cars as bikes tend to work better on normal tar rather than exist kerbs etc. and they are not the size of barges, I am convinced if F1 cars were narrower and shorter this issue would be less of a problem,

[ScotsBrutesFan]

What this weekends events have shown is that for the most part having gravel there is a deterrent and that the cars stayed mostly on course.
My issue is that a track is defined as between the white lines, so why does the gravel have to be a full cars width away from the outer edge of the white line.

Put it less than a cars width away, make the kerbs less than a cars width. Force them to keep 2 wheels well within limits rather than counting millimetres to see if a cars inside tyres stayed on the line.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Put it less than a cars width away, make the kerbs less than a cars width. Force them to keep 2 wheels well within limits rather than counting millimetres to see if a cars inside tyres stayed on the line.

How are you planning to define, and then police, "well within limits?"

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

My issue is that a track is defined as between the white lines, so why does the gravel have to be a full cars width away from the outer edge of the white line.

Put it less than a cars width away, make the kerbs less than a cars width.

Of course.

FIA and Red Bull Racing are aware of this, the kerbs already existed and there wasn't time to modify them.

As the kerb width at the Red Bull Ring is two metres and there wasn’t enough time to remove the kerb and switch it for something similar to what was installed in China this year (a one metre kerb and then gravel), the FIA have artificially shortened the width of the kerb by moving the white line onto the kerb.

Now as the kerbs are red and white, that makes it tricky to see the white line clearly – so there is also an additional blue line behind just to make it easy for marshals.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...T3HHpwuEJ7PoHw

Originally Posted by S griffin

It’s good to have more gravel in places, but we still have the problem of the corner where Oscar got pinged harshly.

Disagree, rules are rules. The uniform white line rule has been welcome compared to the mess of different rules at different corners.

The kerb width from the white line to the gravel was less than 2m, if Oscar had stayed with his tyre entirely on the kerb he would not have been pinged.

Instead Oscar had about a third of his rear tyre on the gravel -- fortunately for him the level of the gravel was below the level of the kerb (perhaps due to other drivers messing up the gravel previously).

[Adam43]

I initially thought that well within was a problem here, but then I re-read as I assumed I’d probably not taken the time to understand what was being meant.

ScotsBrutesFan is saying that if the kerbs are narrow then the (inner) 2 wheels would be well within those limits. Hence no need for police, or define. The driver will be choosing not to go any further because it would be bad for them. He can confirm if I’ve read that right.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Adam43

ScotsBrutesFan is saying that if the kerbs are narrow then the (inner) 2 wheels would be well within those limits. Hence no need for police, or define. The driver will be choosing not to go any further because it would be bad for them. He can confirm if I’ve read that right.

Correct Adam

If the driver want's to push to the very edge of the track remember as I said in my first post the track is defined as WITHIN the white lines. If a driver wants to run on the white lines with their inside tyres then the outer tyres will be on the gravel.