gamma racing day - why doesn't the uk do this!

[bella]

so, i spent the weekend at the gamma racing day at assen. pretty much the only things not on the timetable are horse racing, wife carrying and trucks, it's that wide-ranging. there's a historic race, boss gp, "supercars" (think british gt), formula renault 2.0, bikes, sidecars...

there were upwards of 50,000 people there - their quoted attendance is around the 80,000 mark. and people loved it, the stands were full all day, the paddock was packed, the army brought a chinook, there was karting, bikes racing on the kart track, loads of stuff going on. if you fancy a random away day next season, make this your choice. it's genuinely great.

the event was sponsored by a large retailer, they handed out free event caps that everyone was wearing, €5 vouchers for the store at the end of the day, they had promo girls everywhere, the brand was literally everywhere.

which raises the question - why don't we do more of these things in the uk? do we even do any at all? i'm sure the wide variation of track action on offer helped get people through the door, in addition to the free tickets (but paid-for paddock access) and f1 demo. all we have is the world series by renault (which has returned in a cheap but not free format) and the usual money-grabbing events like the btcc and bsb. event costs can't be *that* much higher here surely..

[MGDavid]

Because of the lack of interest and leadership in 'club' level motorsport by the MSA, and hence the way it is run in UK.

The circuit owners rent out the venue by the day and get paid no matter what happens or however many/few people come through the gate, so have no need or interest in promotion or developing events.

The event organisers (the permit-holding motor racing clubs) carry the commercial risk and plan to cover the costs with the expected entry fees; they do not have the depth of experience or numbers of people to do more than just run the races.

'that's the way we've always done it' syndrome.

PS - a forum search should reveal plenty of previous on this subject.

[bella]

i'm aware of all that, and i'm pretty sure i've personally pedalled most of it within the last few years. but it doesn't get anybody anywhere does it?

ultimately, 80,000 people watched what was effectively not a great deal more than a club event. but the paddock was full of competitors and spectators and everyone had a great day. the circuit sold plenty of paddock tickets and the butty and beer wagons were well visited. entries for most races were high.

where's the downside?

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by bella

i'm aware of all that, and i'm pretty sure i've personally pedalled most of it within the last few years......?

I do wonder why you asked 'why don't we do more of these things in the uk?' then !

[pirenzo]

It sounds like the whole event was the circuit's initiative. With the UK model which David cites, the initiative presumably comes from the clubs themselves. They consult their members as to what sort of events would interest them, and then they talk to prospective circuits about hiring their facilities. The circuits themselves don't have to organize anything. If there's enough of that sort of business, then there will be no desire to do anything else.

The alternative is for circuits to act as promoter, cut a deal with a sponsor for a contribution towards costs in exchange for all the promotion they want, and to put together the most attractive programme they can to pull in the punters.

I think the problem the UK has is in this respect is it can regularly attract top racing series like Formula One, the WEC, MotoGP, along with the WTCC and DTM in the recent past. These series, along with the major domestic packages like TOCA and BSB want total control over circuit advertising and promotion, and bring their own programme.

UK circuits have probably just lapsed into cutting the best deals possible with these big championships and no longer have the desire or expertise to put on their own events. Likewise sponsors probably look more towards dealing with race series rather than circuits.

[Adam43]

If it going to be successful surely it doesn't matter what the structure is?

A club (not circuit), could pitch the idea to a 'large retailer' and circuit. All are businesses so would commit if the case was strong enough. Unless apathy is in the way? Which might be the problem. Would the reaction be "wow, there is a kind of race for everyone", or would it be "I don't like boss/historic/supercars, if only there was wife carrying"

bella, I don't know why not!

[MGDavid]

My understanding is that most UK clubs are not businesses in the normal sense; they have few assets, a tiny number of paid staff if any, and financially mostly run on a bit of a knife-edge. By which I mean that one washed-out or severely under-entered meeting could wipe out all their reserves. Thus they have to be prudent and cautious at all times, which IMO precludes grandiose schemes to book all sorts of extra entertainment and then hope the punters turn up.
Not wishing to be negative but we have been round this loop several times before and no new ideas or money-trees have been found!

[pirenzo]

Originally Posted by Adam43

If it going to be successful surely it doesn't matter what the structure is?

It matters who is taking the risk of it not being successful, and whose pockets the proceeds are flowing into. As David explains it, it's the clubs taking all the risk. The circuit's costs are covered. The clubs just want to ensure the entries are big enough to break-even.

I think the circuit (or circuit + promoter) is in the best position to organize such an event, because it can invite all those diverse entries and push the event to sponsors before anyone is committed to anything. Once the sponsor is on board, and willing to cover some of the cost, both sponsor and circuit now have a reason to make sure the greatest number of people come through the gate.

[midgetman]

Al W will be along in a minute to tell you more about the Speedfest held at Brands in early June which does exactly what you said. As does the Silverstone Classic (this year's washout notwithstanding ), the Goodwood Revival and the Renault free race days if they are still held.

[Adam43]

I see the risk element and it is clear that a club can't cover it. After all we don't want our entry fees wasted in an insurance fund for this venture

If a good credible business case could be made, with a 'retailer' partner found, and if it was presented to a circuit (as we have deemed that they should take the risk) then it could fly. Of course, the circuit would also gain the reward then.

That is what I meant by if it can be successful it doesn't matter. The structure defines where the risk (and reward) sits, not whether it is successful or not.

[adam46]

I'd say the 'Britcar May Festival' from 2011 came close to the Gamma Racing Days - Supercar Challenge, BOSS GP, Britcar and (quite literally) hundreds of Mazda MX5's at Donington Park! If a regular 'supercard' such as this could be made a tradition in Britain, I'd like to believe it could work nicely.

[chunder]

Clubs might not be businesss, but tracks are.

They are mostly quite happy to take hundreds of pounds from punters doing track days, and make a profit tidily. Palmer bankrolls his stuff with BSB, had a nice idea with Speedfest than ramped the price up to make money after speculating, that will no doubt dwindle in time as a result.

There is little or no entrepreneurship in UK tracks, it is all based around one or two big cash days and continuous track days. And there is a need and market for both so why not.

What is missing is seeking out the new fan, the family. What we have is exploiting that market to the n'th degree with overpriced rubbish like the Silverstone Classic, Goodwood, British GP. Do you get airshow crowds at racing events like you used to? for family prices? Not at all. Thats because an airshow isnt 50 or 60 quid EACH to get in, likie these events are, and more.

THAT is what is needed, an event like an airshow, someone cover the massive insurance costs to allow people to try out things, get somme decent simulators down, get some big stars there for free, (yes I said free not pay them a pathetic fee), attract all disciplines. Goodwood have the right idea, but not enough actual show, its all daft old bugger wobbling up someones drive most of the time.

It is being attempted at a low scale by some folk in Coventry, they are trying to do this with the Motorfest idea. And that is to be applauded and needs to be supported.

But our dear old, MSA do nothing, have done nothing, and will continue to do nothing. They are utterly hopeless, totally out of touch with the modern world, its people and its fans.

So, in my eyes let them rot, I have said it before and I will say it again, if you continue to pay extortionate entry fees as drivers and as racefans you cannot complain, you are not helping.

Simply go and watch club events or other type of racing, explore the world outside dullard race tracks, go and watch a bike enduro, a motocross, some speedway, an autograss, a short oval race, or go abroad which a lot of people are now doing for exactly these reason.

They might learn then, but I doubt it.

[bella]

just got the paul ricard newsletter, and it features 2 free general admission events, one of which has free paddock admission too. that's a clubbie (lead by the v de v series), but the other free general admission event is the elms 4 hour race (2 day weekend - fp on saturday, quali and race sunday). it's the only major venue in the south east of france and has a monster catchment area.

meanwhile, here in the uk we've had to add a daily entrance charge (£15 for 2 days on the gate) for the normally free world series by renault event. no other event has felt this necessary on the calendar.

makes you wonder doesn't it? there were more people at assen than there were at even the busiest days at silverstone, in a smaller space and with paid paddock access. someone saw the commercial opportunity and ran with it, and it's blindingly obvious from the different arguements everyone's coming up with here that we're just too backwards to do the same.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by bella

meanwhile, here in the uk we've had to add a daily entrance charge (£15 for 2 days on the gate) for the normally free world series by renault event. no other event has felt this necessary on the calendar.

How does that work? I was under the impression that Renault covered the gate costs of the event? So would the circuit have to run any ticket prices past Renault? No free entry would mean less people coming through and less exposure for Renault.

Sorry to be ot but I'm rather intrigued.

[midgetman]

I didn't realise WSR was charging now. That's cheeky.

[chunder]

The question has to be, why?

Is it pure greed?

Is it that in this country noone has the wherewithal to try this?

Is it that people have tried and tracks or MSA have blocked it?

I think you may find it is all of these things.

France is hardly backward, neother is Holland, but what they have is a lack of racetrakcs, unlike us.

The only things that are free to watch in the UK are some rallies, off road evenst and things like club events. Everything else, even banger racing warrants a fee.

Is it any wonder participation is on the decrease when a whole generation of possible fans who might just need one spark, can;t go and watch without forking out.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chunder

Is it pure greed?

I don't think it is that. If this was successful there is more money coming into a race meeting and hence more profit (for someone, or some people).

The observation that club racing doesn't need spectators is true. It doesn't have them at the moment, unless you count my Mum coming to watch me.

Which might raise another issue, if I'm being devil's advocate. Why would you want to go and watch 'normal' people race? Isn't it just equivalent of a Sunday 5-a-side game, but with a bigger more expensive pitch, more expensive balls and more people needed to watch over the game? Although the "balls" are more interesting to look at and make a better noise.

[JamieStewart9]

A Club Biased Person? - Chunder if you said that to anyone who knew me, they would literally wet themselves!

No, I run a Racing Organisation that is most definately NOT a club. I run it that way, probably for most of the reasons that you were horrified on first contact with clubs.
I did used to run the biggest motorcycle racing club in the world (at that time) but I left the motorsport business in 2006 to go travelling.

I now run a very successful organisation that is NOT a club, but it behaves exactly how I think a club should, but without all the Committees and other nonsense.
It is a Benign Dictatorship. in my eyes anyway - others might disagree. Regardless of that, it is very successful.

However, even though I personally got frustrated with the whole "club" set up, I still do sympathise with all of the people around the UK who make the club motorsport scene happen. I'm not one of them, but I do appreciate that without them the situation we have could be a lot worse.

Although I don't often post - I am like the majority here, who simply read - I have read a lot of your comments, purely because there are an awful lot of them. I haven't been able to work out exactly what it is that you do within motorsport.
Would it be rude to ask?

[midgetman]

It depends what you want from an event of course. If you want regularly cleaned toilets, toilet paper, wash rooms then someone has to pay for you to have it. Also gate money is a small income for the club to help it stay on existence and put on something for your entertainment.

If you're happy to defecate in the woods and wash your hands in a stream then feel free, I don't begrudge clubs earning money to ensure I have facilities, commentator etc

[bella]

i don't want to argue, but france has plenty of race tracks for the level of interest there is in the sport. the crowds that turn out for the pre-season wec test at ricard on a school day are testament to what people will do if motorsport is accessible.

but i'd like to know how the clubs manage to afford running with free entrance in countries where they do that. is our sport in the uk too fragmented?

[chunder]

I am not so sure club racing needs a crowd at all to be perfectly honest.

I gave up on it many years ago as often, even in the fairly bulletproof late 80's and 90's the grids were small, uninspiring and racing was often average, though there was some good stuff at Cadwell when I used to go early doors.

If you live near a venue then it is understandable that you mght want to go a bit more, but the masses are not the lighest bit interested when you can go to a park with the kids for free, or the beach, or simply socialise. To be hoenst local venues should be dishing out free tickets to people anyway for club events, as a two way dont ***** about our track, and come and have a look yoou might like it, bring a friend etc etc.

How does motorsport run in Holland and France? Is it run by clubs or do the FFSA do everything or the ACO? I am not sure on their organisations?

There are far too many clubs running events over here, and they all want their piece of pie for the series they run, those days have to end surely?

But the bigger picture has to be participation, spectating. Do you really need security guards at club meetings? No. Do you need the venue hosting food outlets? No you can outsource and charge THEM instead of the spectator. Everything else is covered by entry fees. You are NEVER going to make any money from fans in club racing, so why bother charging them. Tracks only do it to make money, no other reason. Outsource it, its simple.

A commentator yes, but again the club can pay for that, most of them have more than enough money to put up a guy who can talk for a few hours, probably a club member, who actually would know more details about individuals than some hired help anyway.

Sadly our country is fll of short termism within motorsport, a quick buck, a piece of pie, NOBODY looks at the long term, the future and the legacy.

[JamieStewart9]

Some very inaccurate and unfair comments about clubs in some of those posts.

Most clubs (most) are primarily there because the people involved in doing all the work behind the scenes are genuinely enthusiastic about motorsport. Some club officials and marshals are ex-competitors, but a larger percentage are people who always wanted to be racers, but for reasons various never got around to it.

I understand that the usual multi-thousand post blowhards will have stopped reading by now because they already know it all - but I'll go on to express an opinion on the original topic anyway - IF YOU ARE GENUINELY INTERESTED please read to the end.

In the modern era Clubs do not get ANY of the gate money at permanent circuits, which might explain why many of them concentrate their efforts on attracting competitors rather than spectators.

Whilst that might seem grossly unfair (and I personally think it is) we have to ask how we came to have that situation. It wasn't always like that.

When I first took over the running of BMCRC in 1996, I had cause to look at a lot of the historical club records, going right back to 1956. The thing that jumped out at me was that up until 1984 circuit hires were VERY modest AND the club got a 50% share of any gate revenues that the event attracted.

Then there was a gradual shift in emphasis and circuit hires increased steadily (at well over 4 times the rate of inflation) over several years. The gate share was still there at this stage, but with the increased circuit hires clubs were forced to concentrate more on putting on ever more efficient meetings that catered for more races - because that was now where the bulk of their income came from.

After a few years of this, the circuit owners thought "Why are we giving these guys any of our gate money, when they are making no effort to attract spectators?" - remember that this was in a period where circuit availability was far outstripped by the huge queue of potential hirers that wanted to use the venues (a sellers market).

The clubs whinged and moaned of course, but the simple truth was that if "Club A" didn't want the offered date on the terms dictated by the venue, then "Clubs B, C, D, E, F etc" were queuing up to take it off their hands.

The circuits still believe that they are best placed to "Promote" all of the events run on their circuits, but the truth is that very few of them actually understand the nuances of what is taking place. You will see on your entry tickets "Club Cars" or "Club Bikes" instead of something that actually identifies what is going on. The website advertising from the circuits is equally bland and the only differences from one clubmans event to another is the presence of the club logo on the site and entrance ticket.

I wrote an article recently about the demise of clubs and even I was surprised when I had to list 24 bike racing clubs that have ceased to exist in the past 20 years.
I took a quick look this morning, and there are a similar number of defunct car clubs over the same period.

With all of those buyers out of the game, has it now become a buyers market? - Maybe.....

I am now personally in discussions with three different venues about doing a "dry-hire" for next season so that I can take on the promotional duties and take the gate money. Dry-hire being where I have to not only hire the venue, but also pay the security, gate staff, commentary, toilet cleaners and everything else that the circuit usually take care of.

I believe that the most promotable event would be a day that is "CHEAP" for the family but not "FREE" as that implies that it isn't worth anything. The old MCN £1 day was an excellent example of what worked. Everything was £1 from the entry ticket, to a programme, a burger and a coffee/tea.
The last one we did at Brands Hatch in 1998 attracted a genuine 8,000 spectators and set us up for the season, because 8,000 people had our seasons schedule placed in their hand as they arrived and many of them came to other events with us that year.

The trick we are missing now is the old Car/Bike event like some of those we used to run in the eighties and early nineties. The old CMSA Festival at Brands Hatch springs to mind.

You don't need huge content, just varied and interesting content that caters for as wide an audience as possible.
1) 1960s based Car Race
2) 1960s based Bike Race
3) 1970s based Car Race
4) 1970s based Bike Race
5) 1980s based Car Race
6) 1980s based Bike Race
7) Modern Single Seater Race
8) Modern Superbike type race
9) Modern Sidecar Race
10) Kart Race
11) Legends Race
12) Truck Race
13) Historic Sidecar Race
Run the whole programme twice over the weekend and you have 26 races of action on circuit plus the peripherals:-

Club stands, static displays, paratroop drop and loads more stuff.

There are a million ways of saying that won't work, but they are not the interesting things. The interesting thing is the one that says it can work.

I don't post often, so apologise for the long post.

Dave

[chunder]

I will admit I ahve never been a member of a car club, I went to a few meetings and was so horrified I stayed away!

But the crux of yuour post is spot on, a cheap race day, a way of making money for both parties, and a way of getting new people involved.

Take away your personal issues about clubs as you are a very biased person regarding that, as I am about not being involved with clubs.

The issue is the possible race meeting you are talkign about, nothing else matters really

[chunder]

So, I am presuming you ran the ACU!!

My interest here is purely as a fan, nothing more. I have been involved in that way since the late 80's when I was able to drive about for myself, and did what most people do initially, follow racing on telly and local events.

I have raced but only at an amateur level in autograss. Never joined a club for the reasons stated above and tried marshalling once, only to be horrified at the shouty little cretins who ran it all, was like being in the damned Army cadets, never again!

The forum needs involvement, not people who do not post or are maybe too afraid or timid to post. It's a good place to discuss things like this, and people in the know can put people right, offer opinion and bring up new areas to discuss.

Regarding my involvement, it is nothing, just a fan who is sick and tired of being ripped off with some events. Who has managed to find other things that offer far more for race fans away from the MSA, club racing, historic racing.

One who believes passionately that the motorsport public are being taken for a ride at times, and drivers are even more so. They are being asked to foot the bill for poorly run circuits, an MSA that cares more for its bank balance than it does about getting people involved. And a country that rests on its laurels because it has a massive motorsport industry and practically runs F1.

And one who also believes passionately that nowhere near enough is being done to get people involved at a cheap, basic level. Forget clubs and marshalling, what we need is low price events, that offer people more than track days do. It's simple really, if you manage to do that, the drip will start to feed into all areas of motorsport.

Bella has it spot on, if you make events like this one in Holland it can only work wonders for involvement.

Let me give you an example, I remember years ago going to Bernie's airfield in Kent to watch an airshow. I watched for a few hours and then walked to the merchandise stands, except the whole front row was taken up with forces recruitment. Perfect place eh, look at the great planes, here take a leaflet about the Army, Navy kids, young adults. come and sit in a cockpit, shoot a rifle.

You need to give people the chance to drive something, feel something, get close to the action, not give them a few stickers and a Lewis Hamilton mousemat.

[chunder]

And Adam you are right. Utterly.

I have got into cricket recently, watched a few village games, was alright, then went with my mate to watch Bucks play at Trings ground, the difference was staggering (and this is 3 tiers down from !st class). Would I still be as into watching a village game now? No.

Same as football, I support a Conference side and have been to see them once in 5 years, why? because their quality of football is garbage yet the prices are the same as they were when they were in the League! Am I a bad supporter? Probably, but a reasonable one? Maybe yes.

Same with racing. I love the cars at historic events, what I don't love is seeing people being lapped in 4 laps, beautiful cars being driven slower than a sporting trials car. Nitpicking yes for all that there are countless guys on the limit, driving brilliantly, but that was what I took away from the few grandee events I attended, yet the smaller events seemed to offer me more in terms of value and driving standards!

So yes, I prefer to watch guys at the top of thier game, as should any aspiring fan, yet as fans the prices go up, and up and more and more people who want to be seen to be there go, less who SHOULD be there for the legacy of our sport can't even afford a car park pass.