Sorry for Cheating - Bathurst 87

[peckstar]

A nostalgic Read

[Andy77]

Really a nice find . Thanks !

One sentence stands out though :

" Sometimes the rules are open to interpretation."

It isn't really different these days, is it ?

[Marcos WTF]

Good article-Thanks for posting it Peckstar. Just one more cheated up siera that should never been allowed to race in the Australian Touring Car Championship.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Good article-Thanks for posting it Peckstar. Just one more cheated up siera that should never been allowed to race in the Australian Touring Car Championship.

No question it was cheated up Marcos - but that year it was the World Touring Car Championship from memory.

[Henry]

sounds like someone would be a walk-up start for the 12-Hour...

[Marcos WTF]

Originally Posted by Tourer

No question it was cheated up Marcos - but that year it was the World Touring Car Championship from memory.

Bathurst, yes- was the rest of the season? And it can't have been the WTCC ( sounds like some dodgy wrestling show) for all the Gp A era/farce years before and after 1987.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Bathurst, yes- was the rest of the season? And it can't have been the WTCC ( sounds like some dodgy wrestling show) for all the Gp A era/farce years before and after 1987.

Here you can find more info about '87 WTCC:
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...87%20WTCC.html (Great website!!!)

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Good article-Thanks for posting it Peckstar. Just one more cheated up siera that should never been allowed to race in the Australian Touring Car Championship.

I wonder if Walkinshaw & Perkins will now apologise for presenting illegal Commomdores at the '88 Great Race.

[Falcon GT]

Originally Posted by chavez

I wonder if Walkinshaw & Perkins will now apologise for presenting illegal Commomdores at the '88 Great Race.

I wonder if Walkinshaw/Goss is going to hand back the trophy for winning with the Jag considering it had two bladders in the fuel tank and a hose for the driver to blow one up at races end

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Just one more cheated up siera that should never been allowed to race in the Australian Touring Car Championship.

You would be of the opinion then that the likes of Moffat's BOSS Mustang, Bob Jane's Camaro, Ian Geoghegan's Mustangs, Kevin Bartlett's Camaro etc etc had no place racing here??

Originally Posted by chavez

Neil Crompton was earmarked for the drive in the #10, but failed to get the required number of signatures on his license.

He drove at Sandown with Jon Crooke, but was replaced by McLeod at Bathurst.

The legend goes that Crompton was 1 signature short to compete at Bathurst & had supposedly turned down a drive in the Winton 6hr a few weeks earlier, in an uncompetitive Subaru. Had he taken the drive it would have given him the extra signature.

He did compete at Rd9 at Calder (with McLeod) a week later & then Rd10 at Wellington after that with David Oxton, so the signature eventually came through.

[Marcos WTF]

[QUOTE=racer69;2694502]You would be of the opinion then that the likes of Moffat's BOSS Mustang, Bob Jane's Camaro, Ian Geoghegan's Mustangs, Kevin Bartlett's Camaro etc etc had no place racing here??

Yes, not in the ATCC. Neither should twin cam Celicas, twin cam Geminis and the Dato 1200 five speed that had a class win at Bathurst '73.

[Bevan-L]

[QUOTE=Marcos WTF;2696875]

Originally Posted by racer69

You would be of the opinion then that the likes of Moffat's BOSS Mustang, Bob Jane's Camaro, Ian Geoghegan's Mustangs, Kevin Bartlett's Camaro etc etc had no place racing here??

Yes, not in the ATCC. Neither should twin cam Celicas, twin cam Geminis and the Dato 1200 five speed that had a class win at Bathurst '73.

Why not?

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Yes, not in the ATCC. Neither should twin cam Celicas, twin cam Geminis and the Dato 1200 five speed that had a class win at Bathurst '73.

Ridiculous post - The ATCC is & would be the poorer for such an attitude.

[Pro Racer]

great read.

[Just Do It!]

Peter Brock didn't eventually win in the 05 car though, did he?

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

Peter Brock didn't eventually win in the 05 car though, did he?

05 failed early in the race, so Peter stepped into car 10, as he was legally entitled to do under the rules of the day, at the second round of pit stops and drove it to victory.

[Just Do It!]

Thanks David. I was lead to be believe that his last victory wasn't in 05. Who was in the team that year? Brock and......because someone must of got dudded out of a Bathurst victory?

Wouldn't that turn you into an (mental) assylum seeker?

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Just Do It!

Thanks David. I was lead to be believe that his last victory wasn't in 05. Who was in the team that year? Brock and......because someone must of got dudded out of a Bathurst victory?

Wouldn't that turn you into an (mental) assylum seeker?

The left out driver was former Formula 2 champ and most recently created of the Hypermax Superkarts and Hyperstimulator racing car simulator capsules, Jon Crooke.

Bathurst '87 on wikipedia

And for those willing to castigate Group A for personal reasons, cheating went on in every category, have a chat to some owners of front running Group C cars today and watch the chagrined smiles as they explain, or hint at the parts of their cars that don't conform to the regulations, look at the number of DSQ's in results lists of Bathurst in the 1960s and also bear in mind for much of the Group A era Holden, for all their posturing in the matter spent several years in Group A providing only a token effort at resistance. In 1985 and 1986 the Commodore was a race winner and a Bathurst winner, and again in 1990, but looking at 1987, 1988 and 1992 for example they weren't even trying, not enterring full seasons, bringing out half developed cars, sacking their factory supported teams, trying to assemble new teams with ownership and mangement of them centred in Europe.

At least the Sierra guys were Australian teams committed to supporting Australian racing, and for those who hated the Nissan GT-R, perhaps it needs to be pointed out that the Nissan GT-R was only dominant in Australia, everywhere else it was just one car among many. Their dominance here in Australia was due to Gibson Motor Sport being the best run, best funded, best prepared, most skillful team in the country than anything else. If they had had Sierras during the years they ran R31 Skylines Jim Richards would have won a few more championships. The only reason the R30 didnt win ATCC or Bathurst in 1987 is because in the former case the BMW M3 got more points for the same race positions and at Bathurst because Brock gained a lap on the Skylines in the pits when he shouldn't have because officialdom got the safety car procedure wrong.

[anthony81901]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

bear in mind for much of the Group A era Holden, for all their posturing in the matter spent several years in Group A providing only a token effort at resistance. In 1985 and 1986 the Commodore was a race winner and a Bathurst winner, and again in 1990, but looking at 1987, 1988 and 1992 for example they weren't even trying, not enterring full seasons, bringing out half developed cars, sacking their factory supported teams, trying to assemble new teams with ownership and mangement of them centred in Europe.

The 1985 Commodore was basically a road car with slicks. With no aerodynamic aids it was only Brock's brilliant driving that kept it anywhere near the front. By the beginning of 1986 the 500 upgraded versions as required by the Group A regs had been completed and in longer distance races the Commodore was competitive and was seen on the world stage with the ETCC campaign.

But the built for purpose M3s & Sierras in that arrived in 1987 were just in another league. I think anyone who objectively reads the story of the Brock Holden split will come to the conclusion that a parting of the ways had to happen, Brock was in cloud cuckoo land Holden had no real choice.

The 1988 effort appeared to be fairly serious, although hampered by the TWR car not able to debut until the enduros until the 500 road going examples were built. Agree that skipping the 1989 ATCC wasn't a great PR move, but in reality the way the regs were they were going to be lapped by the Sierras.

Agree running a skeleton campaign in 1992 was a blunder.

At least the Sierra guys were Australian teams committed to supporting Australian racing, and for those who hated the Nissan GT-R, perhaps it needs to be pointed out that the Nissan GT-R was only dominant in Australia, everywhere else it was just one car among many. Their dominance here in Australia was due to Gibson Motor Sport being the best run, best funded, best prepared, most skillful team in the country than anything else. If they had had Sierras during the years they ran R31 Skylines Jim Richards would have won a few more championships. The only reason the R30 didnt win ATCC or Bathurst in 1987 is because in the former case the BMW M3 got more points for the same race positions and at Bathurst because Brock gained a lap on the Skylines in the pits when he shouldn't have because officialdom got the safety car procedure wrong.

I think it was the building of cars to suit the regulations, firstly the RS500 and later the GT-R that ultimately brought Group A undone. In its formative years there was a variety of cars that could win but from 1988 picking the winner became all too predictable.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by anthony81901

But the built for purpose M3s & Sierras in that arrived in 1987 were just in another league. I think anyone who objectively reads the story of the Brock Holden split will come to the conclusion that a parting of the ways had to happen, Brock was in cloud cuckoo land Holden had no real choice.

I think that thing that didn't help Holden in 1987 was that CAMS lengthened the championship races by some margin, which affected the Commodore's most of all due due to their weight.

Perkins, Grice & even Brock were quite strong that year, particularly early on. Perkins had the speed to win the first round, Grice was dominating Symmons Plains until mechanical failure, while Brock was third at Symmons and got a front row berth at Lakeside.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

....and for those who hated the Nissan GT-R, perhaps it needs to be pointed out that the Nissan GT-R was only dominant in Australia, everywhere else it was just one car among many. Their dominance here in Australia was due to Gibson Motor Sport being the best run, best funded, best prepared, most skillful team in the country than anything else. If they had had Sierras during the years they ran R31 Skylines Jim Richards would have won a few more championships. The only reason the R30 didnt win ATCC or Bathurst in 1987 is because in the former case the BMW M3 got more points for the same race positions and at Bathurst because Brock gained a lap on the Skylines in the pits when he shouldn't have because officialdom got the safety car procedure wrong.

In fact, the Skyline- in all it's Group A forms- was almost a purely Australian and Japanese phenomenon- apart from the Gibson cars, they were only really widely raced at home in Japan.

IIRC the only Group A Skyline ever seen in Europe was the Howard Marsden/NME R31 that Grice shared with Win Percy in a few European races in 1988. Apart from that the most successful- and almost the only- European Nissan effort was probably Graham Goode's privateer Bluebird Turbo Coupe- a regular class winner in the BTCC in 1984/5.
'Godzilla' was only ever seen in Group N production form in Europe as I remember- we certainly never saw one in the BTCC, and the ETCC was canned before the R32 hit the circuits

Originally Posted by anthony81901

The 1985 Commodore was basically a road car with slicks. With no aerodynamic aids it was only Brock's brilliant driving that kept it anywhere near the front. By the beginning of 1986 the 500 upgraded versions as required by the Group A regs had been completed and in longer distance races the Commodore was competitive and was seen on the world stage with the ETCC campaign.

But the built for purpose M3s & Sierras in that arrived in 1987 were just in another league. I think anyone who objectively reads the story of the Brock Holden split will come to the conclusion that a parting of the ways had to happen, Brock was in cloud cuckoo land Holden had no real choice.

The 1988 effort appeared to be fairly serious, although hampered by the TWR car not able to debut until the enduros until the 500 road going examples were built. Agree that skipping the 1989 ATCC wasn't a great PR move, but in reality the way the regs were they were going to be lapped by the Sierras.

Agree running a skeleton campaign in 1992 was a blunder.

I think it was the building of cars to suit the regulations, firstly the RS500 and later the GT-R that ultimately brought Group A undone. In its formative years there was a variety of cars that could win but from 1988 picking the winner became all too predictable.

What really killed the game was that 500-off Evolution clause in the rules- the basic Sierra Cosworth was about on a par with the M3s, and in privateer hands at BTCC level in 1987, the older Rovers and VK Commodores were still winning races. Once the RS500 appeared mid-season, it was pretty much game over for anything else as an outright winner.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by KA

What really killed the game was that 500-off Evolution clause in the rules- the basic Sierra Cosworth was about on a par with the M3s, and in privateer hands at BTCC level in 1987, the older Rovers and VK Commodores were still winning races. Once the RS500 appeared mid-season, it was pretty much game over for anything else as an outright winner.

I wholeheartedly agree, the 500 sporting evolutions homolgation was the greatest flaw in Group A. To this day, i believe we could have a very successful, long lasting Group A Touring Car series without that rule.

[brendonwood1]

Originally Posted by KA

In fact, the Skyline- in all it's Group A forms- was almost a purely Australian and Japanese phenomenon- apart from the Gibson cars, they were only really widely raced at home in Japan.

IIRC the only Group A Skyline ever seen in Europe was the Howard Marsden/NME R31 that Grice shared with Win Percy in a few European races in 1988. Apart from that the most successful- and almost the only- European Nissan effort was probably Graham Goode's privateer Bluebird Turbo Coupe- a regular class winner in the BTCC in 1984/5.
'Godzilla' was only ever seen in Group N production form in Europe as I remember- we certainly never saw one in the BTCC, and the ETCC was canned before the R32 hit the circuits.

The Skyline R32 GT-R did in fact race in Group A in Europe - at the Spa 24 hour. They appeared in Group N trim in 1990, finishing 12th outright and second in class: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...991%20Spa.html

More importantly, a Group A Skyline GT-R won the 1991 Spa 24 hour race: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...991%20Spa.html.
Photo of the car on this page: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...991%20Spa.html

The Grp N GT-R won its class and finished 6th outright.

In 1992, the GT-R was given a weight handicap at Spa, and failed to finish after a pit lane fire at a re-fueling stop: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...992%20Spa.html.
The Grp N GT-R won its class again in 1992. http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...992%20Spa.html

I believe that Luis-Perez Sala also won the Spanish Touring Car Championship in a Repsol sponsored GT-R, but this may have been a Group N car. I have a vague memory of seeing this in International Reports section of Autosport during that era, but I no longer have access to the magazines from that time.

[DAVID PATERSON]

PB was entered with David Parsons in 05. Peter McLeod was entered with Jon Crooke in car 10. 05 failed before the first pit stop and PB contemplated jumping in to car 10 at that point, but then decided to leave Peter McLoed in the car as a reward for bringing significant funding to the cash strapped team.

Besides, due to the funding shortage in the wake of the divorce with Holden, car 10 was severely underprepared and not expected to last that long anyway. No one was more surprised than PB when the car made it to the seocnd pit stop, so he decided to jump in a have a red hot go. David Parsons took over when Brock pitted, but Jon Crooke missed out on a drive that day.

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

PB was entered with David Parsons in 05. Peter McLeod was entered with Jon Crooke in car 10. 05 failed before the first pit stop and PB contemplated jumping in to car 10 at that point, but then decided to leave Peter McLoed in the car as a reward for bringing significant funding to the cash strapped team.

Besides, due to the funding shortage in the wake of the divorce with Holden, car 10 was severely underprepared and not expected to last that long anyway. No one was more surprised than PB when the car made it to the seocnd pit stop, so he decided to jump in a have a red hot go. David Parsons took over when Brock pitted, but Jon Crooke missed out on a drive that day.

You've obviously been following the sport for a long time. Thanks for the knowledge.

Would it be fear to say then that Jon Crooke and Phil Brock are the only two drivers whose names have been on race cars that won Bathurst, but they actually never got to drive a race lap, or certainly didn't get to finish the race as a driver?