Idea for a new formula

[JohnnyFiama]

I get these ideas sometimes when my kids wake me up at ridiculous hours in the night and I can't go back to sleep.....

How practical would it be to replace GP2 with a series based completely on the F1 rules but with (perhaps) control engines, ECU etc?

You could no doubt come up with a few other cost cutting measures but the benefits could be huge. It really would be an ideal training ground for teams, drivers, engineers and designers as they'd essentially be designing, building and driving F1 cars but with just a little less power. There might even be possibilities to buy old F1 chassis and run them with the spec engines saving costs and giving the F1 teams some revenue. Perhaps F1 teams could run junior teams using the same design as their F1 cars, perhaps sell current chassis, economies of scale and all that.

It all seems too good to be true. Shoot my idea down in flames.....

[JNWRF01]

wasn;t that the idea behind F3000....? I seem to remember certainly a pair of Williams & Tyrells in first year...

[chunterer]

And, I have to say, apart from the cost there's nothing much wrong with GP2 as it is?

Like the last poster mentions, your idea Johnny is similar to the original F3000 concept, which on paper was very, very good until a few people got ideas above their station and Bernie got wind of it!!

If I could make something up new i'd prefer to see something like GP2 open up to allow other chassis builders instead of running as a spec series.

[duke_toaster]

I agree it would be good to make GP2 in to a proper multi-chassis Formula Two series - just have GT3 style performance balancing, very tight regulations, price limits and dyno tested (and limited) engines. They could go for engines being up to 4 litre V8s or 2.8 turbo - the engines would be equalized, and the formula is designed enginewise to be a use for anything that can be found in the Formula Nippon, IndyCar, Ye Olde Champcar Cossie, et al spare parts bin.

Let's face it, there is far too much of a gulf between F1 and the series below, a proper multi-chassis F2 is a good way of doing it.

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I agree it would be good to make GP2 in to a proper multi-chassis Formula Two series - just have GT3 style performance balancing, very tight regulations, price limits and dyno tested (and limited) engines. They could go for engines being up to 4 litre V8s or 2.8 turbo - the engines would be equalized, and the formula is designed enginewise to be a use for anything that can be found in the Formula Nippon, IndyCar, Ye Olde Champcar Cossie, et al spare parts bin.

Let's face it, there is far too much of a gulf between F1 and the series below, a proper multi-chassis F2 is a good way of doing it.

Yes great idea but a pity that it cannot be called F2 now!

[andy97]

I remember the proposal for the TVR engined F3000 chassis, which seemed like a great idea to me (I was reminded of it as it was in Autosport this week) an have thought that a similar idea to a modern F5000 series, with F3000 type chassis and Chevy LS7 engines would be great.

[alias99]

Don't take this the wrong way but what's the point in a multi chassis / manufacturer F2 if everything will be equalized. Might as well just stick with a one spec formula?

Plus then you would have the age old argument of which driver is the best as the ones with most money will have the best equipment etc etc

GP2 is clearly doing a great job with so many past drivers already in F1 and doing well almost straight away. The speed difference is about 5s and that was from silverstone 09, that gap is about the same as every step in the motorsport ladder (i.e. fford -- frenault is about 5s). Why not make GP2 F2, get rid of GP3 and keep F3. So you would go F3 --- F2 ---- F1. I leave the choice of formula below F3 to the others.

[jdman]

I own the origional tvr converted F3000 its a hell of a car a great idea



If you want to know more i have all the history

[andy97]

Does it still have the TVR engine?

[jdman]

Originally Posted by andy97

Does it still have the TVR engine?

yes i bought it 2 years ago and a brand new tvr engine had been fitted in the factory not long before they went bust.

[duke_toaster]

Yes it can, either wait for the tender for the FIA F2 Championship to expire (end of 2011) or buy the trademark from Jonny Palmer and let him call it Super Duper Formula Palmer Audi or whatever.

Two problems overlooked are first and second rung series, in an ideal world the FIA would create Formula Junior (1000cc bike engines, carbon only in monocoque, one design wings, generally like SCCA Formula 1000 but with carbon tubs) which would be supported by being used for a World Cup, and F3 would be somehow tweaked to ensure it isn't Formula Dallara and costs are cut, presumably by more restrictions on carbon, less downforce and cheaper engines producing more power - that's called turbos ...

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Yes it can, either wait for the tender for the FIA F2 Championship to expire (end of 2011) or buy the trademark from Jonny Palmer and let him call it Super Duper Formula Palmer Audi or whatever.

Two problems overlooked are first and second rung series, in an ideal world the FIA would create Formula Junior (1000cc bike engines, carbon only in monocoque, one design wings, generally like SCCA Formula 1000 but with carbon tubs) which would be supported by being used for a World Cup, and F3 would be somehow tweaked to ensure it isn't Formula Dallara and costs are cut, presumably by more restrictions on carbon, less downforce and cheaper engines producing more power - that's called turbos ...

I like your thinking

[duke_toaster]

Thanks.

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! I'd like to flesh out my World Cup idea which may sound a bit pointless (especially with A1GP either having failed or that being imminent). Most sports have some form of nations cup, however that's not my reason for suggesting it for motor sport. A1GP was a wacky idea from the start - one car teams aren't really good as a national team, many countries were run by foreign racing teams (unavoidable in many cases but should be kept to a minimum) and some countries had a great tradition of motor racing but did not get in. Sweden, Finland, Belgium, Argentina and Spain for example with Japan falling off early on. If football, cricket, either code of rugby, table tennis - heck, even Muggle Quidditch were to have a World Cup where places were awarded in a manner like A1GP would be laughed at. That's why there ought to be a system of invites based on a fair and objective criteria (a ranking based on motor racing pedigree and International licensed drivers) plus, like any other tournament, the host nation. ASNs would tender out the running of their own team, and if that fails the FIA would do that. Three car teams. Eventually, there would be World Cup Qualifying events held in January, with the top twelve teams from the last three on average and the hosts qualifying automatically. This event, which would happen once every year in early December, would probably last four or five days with the final on Monday under floodlights. Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[kerrmanningjarv]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Thanks.

I like this idea a lot, I've always been an A1GP supporter because I love the national team idea. Yes the execution of A1GP wasn't the best but the idea is very good in my opinion.

A1GP was talking about eventually having regional/qualification events but obviously they haven't got that far!

[Woolley]

I'd prefer to replace F1 with a series based on GP2 rules.

[duke_toaster]

They do need to consider introducing Venturi tunnels in F1, but replacing F1 with a control formula is a total non-starter.

One thought could be basing a new Formula Two on the old F3000 rules before it went spec (beefed up to modern standards), but allowing a much wider choice of engines (4000cc NA for the Mechacrome lumps, current 3400cc FNippon ones, old 3500cc IndyCar ones and 2700cc for the old ChampCar turbos) with balancing.

[Felon]

Hope that I ain't resurrecting the dead.

There's something that caught my attention. I think you need to have a measure of the amount of money being sinked into the championship by each of the entrant. If it gets too high it's definitely gonna drive some of the competitors out. Maybe you can get away for a high tier championship, but for the lower ones it's a suicidal move. For such cases I'd suggest a budget cap.

As for the "car" of a championship, Duke Toaster had pretty much spoke what I wanted to say, though I'd have an idea on a lower tier championship. Let's say a chassis that conforms to a tight set of dimensions, an engine in series production, controlled size of brake discs & suspension geometry, amount of downforce at a certain speed, control tires and gearbox. Put a budget cap on the chassis and engines so that every competitor can have a fair chance to afford a car and compete.

The final bit is to balance every entrant's car, probably to ballast it based on its performance on the track during a controlled test drive. If you want to spice up the racing, making the winner to carry his "trophy" (read: additional ballast) may help.

[Mak]

OMG have'nt we already got to many series.. God help us, someone may take you serious. We should be culling the series we have not creating more crap that no one can afford.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Mak

OMG have'nt we already got to many series.. God help us, someone may take you serious. We should be culling the series we have not creating more crap that no one can afford.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Mak

OMG have'nt we already got to many series.. God help us, someone may take you serious. We should be culling the series we have not creating more crap that no one can afford.

Absolutely, but these series need to be distilled in to something. If I was in charge of the FIA, I'd introduce four (F1, F2, F3, FJunior) and eventually not sanctioning any other open wheel road course series. EU lawyers might have an issue there, although it could be done in a way by tweaking the Superlicence criteria.

[NaBUru38]

Circuit drivers from all around the world only want to reach F1 by climbing F-F, F3, WSR and GP2, and if they fail they must resign to join the Superleague, A1GP or IndyCar, or switch to touring car or sports car racing. That's wrong. I agree that there must be a European sub-F1 series with fast cars and decent media coverage, i.e. not a development series like GP2 or Auto GP.

The problem with getting the package work is that spectators will see unknown names driving for unknown teams. A1GP and Superleague tried to solve that by replacing unknown teams with popular football teams and national teams. My idea is that non-F1 teams should be part of it: DAMS, SG, Tech 1, Coloni, Draco, Prema, Addax, Pons, Racing Engineering, Arden, Carlin, Fortec, iSport, Rapax, Super Nova... you get the idea.

Cars should be cheap and powerful, so I propose one chassis and three or less V8+ engines. But I'll add a driver rule: this new series would be open for drivers 25 years old or older, who had a podium in a 30min+ race in GP2, WSR, F2 or Euroseries 3000 / AutoGP race, raced less than 40 F1 races and did not score any podium there.

[sauber11]

My small dream , if DTM and GT500 will finally join together - to make something similar with GP2 and Nippon. Lets say new gp2 engine from Audi,Mercedes,Nissan,Honda,Toyota - same as in nippon,new dtm.
Also to make nippon\gt500 come to china, singapore,korea - make it more international. Same engines,tyres(bridgestone),aerodynamics spec. Maybe even to make superfinal like macau in formula3.

[duke_toaster]

It would be a very good idea. Two or three choices of engines and chassis (do it like IndyCar did with a franchise system and cost caps), eight races in each series (like you said, Europe would replace GP2, Asia would support some Asian GPs, the rest be filled with standalones in Japan), Formula Two World Championship finals to be held in support of the final GP of the season (the logical choice for that would be USA) and another round.

The new formula for FN has meant that it's now getting 12 car grids, which isn't a good idea. The only issue is that DTM cars are ~470hp, JGTC ~500hp, and a GP2 replacement should be ~600hp. I'd suggest allowing any up to 4000cc V8 NA, 2700 for turbos - dyno runs and rev limits can ensure they can all compete. That way, you could have the current GP2 engine and a whole variety plundered from various spare parts bins.

[NaBUru38]

F1 will always need development series. Then, to emphasize drivers' skills over machine differences, they are bound to be spec. I'm talking about something else, a place where drivers who don't have resources to enter F1 can keep racing formula cars at continental level, and manufacturers can win races cheaply. Call it Indy Euroseries, if you like.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

F1 will always need development series. Then, to emphasize drivers' skills over machine differences, they are bound to be spec.

F3000 wasn't spec for much of its life, neither is F3. Many would argue that F3 is better as a development series as the teams can do some development. That's why I suggest a multi-chassis and multi-engine F2, but with balancing somewhat like GT3.

I'm talking about something else, a place where drivers who don't have resources to enter F1 can keep racing formula cars at continental level, and manufacturers can win races cheaply. Call it Indy Euroseries, if you like.

Remove the "formula" from that and you've got touring cars. With regards to open wheelers, a series really needs to either be the top series in a nation, on the road to F1 or something really special (the World Cup idea I keep on harping on about) to succeed.