What is the Real incentive of LMP1-L vs LMP2?

[LC2guy]

OK, so LMP1-L are faster and compete in the Top Class of WEC and at Le Mans, but realistically, if all 6 Factory cars survive, you are aiming at 7th Overall at best. Surely if LMP1-L didn't exist, then LMP2 would still be aiming at the same 7th Overall, but you'd also have a car eligible to compete for Overall Wins in other Classic races at Daytona 24hr, Sebring 12hr and Petit-Lemans. I'm probably missing something, just not sure what.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by LC2guy

I'm probably missing something, just not sure what.

You're missing two to three years of constant awkward politicial movement among all stakeholders

[Rodger Davies]

I'm sort of with you there. It guarantees an entry at Le Mans pretty much, which will be a struggle for a lot of P2 runners this year potentially.

You can also run an all-pro lineup; neither of Rebellion's crews would be eligible in P2.

From now going forward, it's the only option if you want to bring your own chassis, which is a bit of a pity. It may be that they raise the car count for next year just by default, and of course will herald it as a great success.

In fairness though, there aren't a huge number of reasons, hence the tiny numbers (2 entrants over three years).

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

You can also run an all-pro lineup; neither of Rebellion's crews would be eligible in P2.

From now going forward, it's the only option if you want to bring your own chassis, which is a bit of a pity.

Those are 2 big reasons for its existence, in my opinion. in 2015 the P1-L cars could barely lap faster than P2, 2015 was slightly better. But for 2017 the P2 cars in intended to be faster. Will they potentially be mixing it up with the P1-L's?

[Akrapovic]

For those determined to build their own car, it's the only option. Look at the SCG as an example. He could've run a GT3 for much cheaper, but was set on running his own car.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

For those determined to build their own car, it's the only option. Look at the SCG as an example. He could've run a GT3 for much cheaper, but was set on running his own car.

Basically we came up with a GT3/GTE car (SCG 003C) that pushed the envelope, is very fast, can be BOP'd fairly and the fans seem to enjoy seeing racing.

The problem remains that as we'll never sell the required 250 cars unless a manufacture takes us over/joint ventures with us, we are not allowed to race at Daytona, Sebring, 24 of Spa, Le Mans, or Bathurst.

We really don't see why they won't let us race " a la Delta Wing" but they won't and that's why so far we've only raced the N24/VLN and this year the 12H of Mugello

We are not an approved constructor for P2 so the only class we could race in at Le Mans in a car we designed, engineered and built is LMP1. The reality of that is daunting. We have sourced a great LMP 1 engine, not our current 003C one, and do feel we could build a very interesting and completive car but the money required for development and two years of racing The WEC and Le Mans with a three car team is about 40mm euro more that we've raised so far. We have room for two customers who'd like to join us on a once in a lifetime adventure and additional sponsors who we feel we could get huge world wide exposure but while hopeful understand the odds.

We will race the 12H of Mugello , VLN 1, 6H 24 qualifying race and the N 24 with Two SCG 003 C's. For the sport of it VLN 1, 6H qualifying, and The N24 with our hybrid FIA Alternative Cup Champion P 4/5 C and see what miracles do or don't happen to enable the future.

This summer we'll have our road version SCG 003S available for sale and Magazine testing and which we think at 1180 KG, 800HP, 850 NM's of torque, 900KG of NET downforce and shod with our Road legal Dunlop tires will turn a very nice NS time.

Should you or anyone you know be interested in any of the above let us know.

Should any of you be at a race where we are please say hello.

Best

Jim

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Napolis

Basically we came up with a GT3/GTE car (SCG 003C) that pushed the envelope, is very fast, can be BOP'd fairly and the fans seem to enjoy seeing racing.

The problem remains that as we'll never sell the required 250 cars unless a manufacture takes us over/joint ventures with us, we are not allowed to race at Daytona, Sebring, 24 of Spa, Le Mans, or Bathurst.

We really don't see why they won't let us race " a la Delta Wing" but they won't and that's why so far we've only raced the N24/VLN and this year the 12H of Mugello

We are not an approved constructor for P2 so the only class we could race in at Le Mans in a car we designed, engineered and built is LMP1. The reality of that is daunting. We have sourced a great LMP 1 engine, not our current 003C one, and do feel we could build a very interesting and completive car but the money required for development and two years of racing The WEC and Le Mans with a three car team is about 40mm euro more that we've raised so far. We have room for two customers who'd like to join us on a once in a lifetime adventure and additional sponsors who we feel we could get huge world wide exposure but while hopeful understand the odds.

We will race the 12H of Mugello , VLN 1, 6H 24 qualifying race and the N 24 with Two SCG 003 C's. For the sport of it VLN 1, 6H qualifying, and The N24 with our hybrid FIA Alternative Cup Champion P 4/5 C and see what miracles do or don't happen to enable the future.

This summer we'll have our road version SCG 003S available for sale and Magazine testing and which we think at 1180 KG, 800HP, 850 NM's of torque, 900KG of NET downforce and shod with our Road legal Dunlop tires will turn a very nice NS time.

Should you or anyone you know be interested in any of the above let us know.

Should any of you be at a race where we are please say hello.

Best

Jim

To be blunt, I guess the reason they don't let you race like the DeltaWing is because of who was involved in the DW. With Nissans backing, the ACO managed to get a new manufacturer into LMP1 (not that it worked out very well), so were willing to give the DW a pass. And then IMSA gives it a pass because Don Panoz owns it. Had it been you or I who owned it, it wouldn't get in.

I, as do many of the fans, LOVE the SCG 003 and the P4/5, but the organizers are wanting big manufacturers. To many of us, 1 SCG 003 is more valuable than 3 Nissan LMPs, but that isn't what the headlines will pull in. But I do agree, I don't see why your car cannot be entered into IMSA and Le Mans given the DeltaWing makes it in. Bathurst surprises me given they have the Marc Fords/Mazdas racing in it. Can the SCG 003 not be run nationally, like the Ginettas?

Unfortunately many of us won't be able to buy one of the 250 road cars you need. But if buying the diecasts helps then at least you guys have Spark making them now (BBR was too expensive). I'm sure many of us here have the P4/5 diecasts and will be adding an SCG003 to the collection. Every little helps right?

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

To be blunt, I guess the reason they don't let you race like the DeltaWing is because of who was involved in the DW. With Nissans backing, the ACO managed to get a new manufacturer into LMP1 (not that it worked out very well), so were willing to give the DW a pass. And then IMSA gives it a pass because Don Panoz owns it. Had it been you or I who owned it, it wouldn't get in.

I, as do many of the fans, LOVE the SCG 003 and the P4/5, but the organizers are wanting big manufacturers. To many of us, 1 SCG 003 is more valuable than 3 Nissan LMPs, but that isn't what the headlines will pull in. But I do agree, I don't see why your car cannot be entered into IMSA and Le Mans given the DeltaWing makes it in. Bathurst surprises me given they have the Marc Fords/Mazdas racing in it. Can the SCG 003 not be run nationally, like the Ginettas?

Unfortunately many of us won't be able to buy one of the 250 road cars you need. But if buying the diecasts helps then at least you guys have Spark making them now (BBR was too expensive). I'm sure many of us here have the P4/5 diecasts and will be adding an SCG003 to the collection. Every little helps right?

It does. Well posted. Thanks!

[BullMan]

You can build your own car and you can put all-pro lineups in the car. Other than that, it seems like a waste of money.

[Deleted]

- Quaranteed LM entry
- No proam driver restriction force feed crap
- No spec chassis force feed crap
- No spec component force feed crap
- No spec engine force feed crap
- No $$$ cost cap force feed crap
- No freezed specs technology and denied innovative development force feed crap
- Assuming you're competent and reliable it's "automatic" best of the rest placement and possible high positioning, even if the chances are slim

Too bad that restricting them to WEC alone dooms em.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Chiana

- Quaranteed LM entry
- No proam driver restriction force feed crap
- No spec chassis force feed crap
- No spec component force feed crap
- No spec engine force feed crap
- No $$$ cost cap force feed crap
- No freezed specs technology and denied innovative development force feed crap
- Assuming you're competent and reliable it's "automatic" best of the rest placement and possible high positioning, even if the chances are slim

Too bad that restricting them to WEC alone dooms em.

I agree wholeheartedly with your synopsis my friend

The ACO need P1. They need a "premier" prototype class in my opinion, as you saw what happened after Group C was killed of by Eccelstone, the Le Mans race paled in significance.

So if my assumption is correct and the ACO are not about to move things into a GT only class structure, then they should be doing something to make P1 Privateer more attractive to the P2 teams that do not want to run in a spec series.

The Nissan P1 was a debacle in any term you care to look at it. If 1 more of the current 3 factory P1 teams decide to bail, t all begins to look decidedly shaky at the top. So that's why I think the ACO should be encouraging P1 Privateer, which on the surface does not appear to be happening. But then I guess Privateers cannot fill the ACO carpark with their road models

Allowing Privateer P1 cars to run in the ELMS, might be a wise start to encouragement. But I think the biggest stumbling block for any advancement in the fields at the moment, there are no customer chassis as there were back in the Lola days! I am sure Oreca will happily build you a Mk11 Rebellion, as I am sure Mr. Kolles would too, not sure who would want to deal with him though?

So as the situation is today, I do not see the status quo changing any.

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

I agree wholeheartedly with your synopsis my friend

The ACO need P1. They need a "premier" prototype class in my opinion, as you saw what happened after Group C was killed of by Eccelstone, the Le Mans race paled in significance.

So if my assumption is correct and the ACO are not about to move things into a GT only class structure, then they should be doing something to make P1 Privateer more attractive to the P2 teams that do not want to run in a spec series.

I agree with this. I think the P1-L is there just in case the factories leave suddenly. I think if the new Toyota is as slow as last year they could leave at the end of the year. We have a smaller P1 grid at LM this year because dieselgate, it could be anything to make factories to leave, and there is where the P1-L are needed.

[Rcz]

Isn't plundering the P2 class going to help P1 lights? Weren't people going to convert their P2s into P1s?

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Isn't plundering the P2 class going to help P1 lights? Weren't people going to convert their P2s into P1s?

Doesn't look that way. Probably because it's not a very good business to run a privateer P1 effort.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

Doesn't look that way. Probably because it's not a very good business to run a privateer P1 effort.

It doesn't have to be a (winning or net zero) business.
Aside of that, FIA/ACO recently stated they don't expect extra '16 entries, but they do for '17.
Probably because they drove some P2 people there. But that's not what this thread is about.

I still believe P1-L is for people like Glickenhaus et al, those who want to make their automotive dream come true above all. You can't do that in P2 (as a one-off constructor).

[TF110]

There's suggested interest from a recent interview. I think they're waiting on the new regs before jumping in. No reason to join now then change your car next year.

[TzeiTzei]

Tell me again, why is there a rule change coming? What is going to change? Weren't these regulations introduced in 2014?

[PorscheFanNo1]

They should just allow LMP1-L into ELMS and adopt it as the DPi rules for IMSA. That way ACO can do whatever spec-limitation they want to LMP2, we would still have good cars in the top ELMS and IMSA series with the good freedome that the constructors want.

Having both LMP1-H and LMP1-L limited to WEC only is quite ridiculous, it would suffice with having only LMP1-H as WEC only to meet all demands from manufacturers with unlimited budget. LMP1-L needs to be found in more series then just WEC to have a bigger market.

Having only 2-3 LMP1-L cars in the top of ELMS would be okey for me, really, I wouldnt complain about that.

[Deleted]

The last two posts are amazing and have restored my faith in common sense amongst fans.

ELMS and ASLMS now ook like amateur Club Trophy Cup Series with second tier division spec-proam-costcap-freeze in every class.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Chiana

The last two posts are amazing and have restored my faith in common sense amongst fans.

ELMS and ASLMS now ook like amateur Club Trophy Cup Series with second tier division spec-proam-costcap-freeze in every class.

You're welcome.

Some of us remember the halycon days of Group C all too well. There is nothing wrong with a spec series, for those who want to run it. But when it virtually becomes compulsory, that's a different story!

If nothing else, allowing LMP1 Privateer a spot on the grid in ELMS, even perhaps allowing a grandfather clause so some of the little bit older cars can be dusted off and compete again, has to be a good thing for the series, how can this not be?

Maybe they do not want their fancy new spec cars to be not the top of the tree! My opinion, LMP2 circa spec 2017 rules, will become a not well supported gentleman driver class. Great work ACO!!!! This for sure will bring the fans flooding back.

[Deleted]

When I listened to the RLM WEC 2015 Review, I was left deeply disappointed they didn't mention the ELMS P1 return at all, even as possibility, you know when they were discussing on how to possibly fix the privateer class. I distinctively remember when in late 2011 the LMP1 abandoment for LMS was announced, Hindhaugh thought it wasn't the right course of action. And indeed, that was the start when the customer market collapsed due to force fed into expensive world championship. ALMS exile on course finally finished it, but ELMS really was the cause for everything. Forget the factory privateer balance difference excuses, that's just nitpicking in comparison.

[Speedblood]

Scrap fuel flow limits in P1-L,
Open up ELMS to P1-L,
IMSA scrap DPi,
Replace with P1-L,
IMSA pay a contribution towards new car costs if need be,
ACO P2 replaces PC,
ACO happy their new rules appear stateside,
IMSA happy that they can run any engine/chassis they like,
ACO no longer need to BoP DPi at Le Mans,
Fans (Chiana in particular ) now much happier!

I think a fair but decent compromise for all.
Ah but to dream...

[Coach Ep]

Nice try but we're dealing with egos here - big, BIG egos!

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Nice try but we're dealing with egos here - big, BIG egos!

Wonder whose egos you are referring to?

If it's the ACO........then I could not agree more in their defense, I would like people to understand that they are French!

If it's people on the forum, no, can't be.

[chernaudi]

I think that the clash of egos between the ACO and FIA (especially the ACO) vs IMSA and NASCAR (both in this case, but especially on the NASCAR end) is why this whole mess of LMP1 privateer vs DPI vs LMP2 exists right now, not to mention the big egos pushing big agendas. It's about as bad as politics every election year around the world.