Track Limits

[TrapezeArtist]

I've long hated the way drivers run far off the track onto the various kerbs, rumble strips, astroturf and green concrete that F1 circuits adorn their tracks with. It's now pleasing to see that in Britain Motorsport UK are now going to clamp down on track limits. From 1 June no part of any of the four wheels and tyres of a car may go beyond the limit of the track ie the white line painted around the edge of the track. It would be great if F1 and other international categories were to follow suit.

[Greem]

After the hoohah last weekend at Brands Hatch (BTCC running "prerelease" regulations) I would not hold out much hope for it being applied internationally.

As someone who has the joy of being a Judge of Fact on the odd occasion (or maybe a little more frequently than that), it's a nightmare of a job. When you've got 20+ single seaters coming at you, getting all the cars that are an inch over is all but impossible. And that means it's impossible to be completely consistent.

Funny though; the issue never comes up at Monaco.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Greem

After the hoohah last weekend at Brands Hatch (BTCC running "prerelease" regulations) I would not hold out much hope for it being applied internationally.

As someone who has the joy of being a Judge of Fact on the odd occasion (or maybe a little more frequently than that), it's a nightmare of a job. When you've got 20+ single seaters coming at you, getting all the cars that are an inch over is all but impossible. And that means it's impossible to be completely consistent.

Funny though; the issue never comes up at Monaco.

I'll order the concrete if you dig the footings........

[Sodemo]

The best way to enforce track limits is by natural or physical barriers. Grass, gravel, Armco is what should be defining the track and “penalising” drivers. Some of the concrete run off at circuits defies logic, for example on the exit of the Bus Stop chicane at Spa. Why is there the need to have tarmac on the exit of a very slow chicane?

[S griffin]

I agree we need less tarmac runoff. Especially in places where the track limits argument comes up. After all drivers manage to cope with the walls at Monaco.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I agree we need less tarmac runoff. Especially in places where the track limits argument comes up. After all drivers manage to cope with the walls at Monaco.

Hrm... Not all of them!

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Greem

Hrm... Not all of them!

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I agree we need less tarmac runoff. Especially in places where the track limits argument comes up. After all drivers manage to cope with the walls at Monaco.

As this is in the F1 forum, I will talk about the F1 tracks.

I understand the Monaco comparison when discussing run off areas etc. I think that it is perhaps given in jest or light heartedly, but the subtlety of humour is often lost in black and white text. So perhaps some are serious by introducing that red herring into this discussion?

Anyway, the trend for newer street tracks like Baku and the other new mega fast street circuits introduced within the last few years is for a small mistake to potentially lead to a multi-million pound repair bill and driver injuries. That is not a good trend IMO, and in the modern safety conscious F1 world seems to be a massive retrograde step. I would rather get rid of most such tracks from the F1 calendar and have sensible discussions about track limits in safer purpose built tracks.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by steve_r

As this is in the F1 forum, I will talk about the F1 tracks.

I understand the Monaco comparison when discussing run off areas etc. I think that it is perhaps given in jest or light heartedly, but the subtlety of humour is often lost in black and white text. So perhaps some are serious by introducing that red herring into this discussion?

Anyway, the trend for newer street tracks like Baku and the other new mega fast street circuits introduced within the last few years is for a small mistake to potentially lead to a multi-million pound repair bill and driver injuries. That is not a good trend IMO, and in the modern safety conscious F1 world seems to be a massive retrograde step. I would rather get rid of most such tracks from the F1 calendar and have sensible discussions about track limits in safer purpose built tracks.

Idk, they all seemed well behaved at Saudi and Baku. Hardly anyone in the wall there. Same with Miami, although that’s not quite the same

[Sodemo]

If in places where they absolutely have to have tarmac run off for safety reasons, I would stipulate a minimum 2 metre strip of grass which would line the track, after that you can have tarmac, gravel whatever you want.

[chillibowl]

Hasent this problem been largely reduced by the new race directors with quali lap time being deleted and warnings and penalties during races?

Arguably there are still too many warnings but it far more regulated then it was a couple of years ago no?

[Sodemo]

I first noticed this tarmac runoff plague at Silverstone 2002 when Massa span at T1 on the opening lap, then rejoined at the back. I don’t know if Silverstone was the first circuit to have tarmac run off? Thinking about it I recall Schumacher spinning off at Nurburgring and then rejoining but that may have been the year before.

[Gerard C]

May be Le Castellet aka Circuit Paul Ricard could be a good example of a safe track "penalising" drivers going too far with no damage other than to the tires?

[billy bleach]

Clearly the GT's at Brands at the weekend didn't have the track limits rule applied to them....

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Clearly the GT's at Brands at the weekend didn't have the track limits rule applied to them....

I'm unsure if you're being sarcastic or not lol. Brands has the pressure sensors and penalised for activating them.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'm unsure if you're being sarcastic or not lol. Brands has the pressure sensors and penalised for activating them.

Watching them run out over the green lap after lap on exit of Hraham Hill bend suggests they weren’t switched on then!

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Watching them run out over the green lap after lap on exit of Hraham Hill bend suggests they weren’t switched on then!

Were they running under international rules where it's just one wheel that has to remain within the track boundaries? The one/no wheels off rule is UK specific and only applies to domestic championships as far as I know.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

Were they running under international rules where it's just one wheel that has to remain within the track boundaries?

Are you sure?

[Gerard C]

Installed since a long time. what is said about nowadays:
https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...d-up/10468190/

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Installed since a long time. what is said about nowadays:
https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...d-up/10468190/

It was inevitable that there would be a bedding-in time while drivers who have a long history of abusing track limits learn to drive within the limits. I'll bet that most of the drivers who were penalised at those first meetings will be a lot more circumspect next time. If they can consistently drive to the edge of whatever hard run-off is provided, then they can consistently drive to the white line.

[Greem]

Yes indeed, they were running to FIA rules where (essentially) if one millimetre of one tyre remains in contact with the white line or the kerb, they're ok.

If none do, bingo.

There were several bingo calls which were processed according to the championship rules. The bulletins are available online.

[The Fat Clerk]

MSUK Clerks & Stewards had a zoom meeting this evening about Track Limits, Race & Respect etc. We were told that licence holders will be contacted by MSUK in the next couple of days.

[Badlands99]

Amazing that track limits were never discussed during the Nurburgring 24 hours!

[MartinSmith]

All I can say is

AT LAST

I was first privy to Eduardo Freitas' Drivers Briefing at Porto, where, he sttated about the white line being a concrete wall... "if you cross it... I will think you have hit the wall.... I will flag your car.... I will pull you in... I will check the car for damage.... this may take time"

Now, finally, its being brought into the driving standards rules

" The principle of track limits is best visualised when one thinks of a street circuit, with hard barriers immediately adjacent to that white line around the track. Suffice to say no driver at such a circuit intentionally goes beyond the white line as they know the consequences would be one of significant damage to the vehicle, with the resulting costs and failure to continue in the race. That same core concept must be borne in mind
when you go to the open sweeps of Silverstone or Donington Park."

AGREED 10000% and I say that as a RACER as well as a CLERK .as a dear friend and international Clerk of the Course and Steward always used to say ".that accelerator works both ways you know!"

(John Smith will be having a ciggie outside race control "up there" and be saying "at least... ")

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

MSUK Clerks & Stewards had a zoom meeting this evening about Track Limits, Race & Respect etc. We were told that licence holders will be contacted by MSUK in the next couple of days.

The letter, complete with pictures, has just landed in my inbox.