Gordon Kirby - A view from Cosworth

[Fogelhund]

Cossie article

Cosworth continues to supply Champ Car with its 2.6 liter turbo V-8s and the Atlantic series with is Mazda four-cylinder engines, but the company's greatest racing days appear to lay in the past. Its best hopes for the future in the sport are invested in a 3.6 liter twin turbo V-8 engine designed for the American and European Le Mans Series LMP1 category

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Cossie article

I am surprised no team uses this engine.

[Mirage M6]

So the rumours were true... well, I think it's a great news isn't it?

[gwyllion]

What rumours? Cosworth is ready to start developing a LMP1 engine, but they have not customers for it...

[Mirage M6]

Check the article gwillion, for example:

Wood remarked. "Ideally, we'd like to partner with a manufacturer for a works effort, but we would also happily lease the engine to customer teams as a Judd/AER alternative."

[knighty]

While I think its sad that such a fantastic company has fell out of F1.......I do think the boys that run Cosworth need to take a reality tablet........if I was a manufacturer looking to enter sports endurance racing, which way would I like to go.......hmmm.......would I go the DI-3.6 turbo route or the 5.5 diesel route........not hard is it.........its the diesel route my a country mile.......

why the hell they are bothering with a DI-3.6 gasoline engine is beyond me, to be honest, this is exactly what cadillac did, converted an IRL engine to twin turbos and it did not produce the beans, but from the cozzy dyno figures they appear to be in the right ball park if the numbers are true........if you was a manufacturer looking at a 3.6 youd have to say that AER know what they are doing

theres a big difference between F1 motors and sports car engines.......I have seen cosworth make a lash up of WRC engines in the early 90's whereby they used F1 design principles on a 4-pot WRC motor producing over 600Nm of torque.......they regularly went pop, hence Mountune got the works deal........a light motor is not necessarily the order of the day in a sports car.......being robust and lasting the distance is, look at Judd and Audi for the evidence.

If Cosworth honestly want a manufacturer deal they should throw together a diesel mule engine and get some dyno figures, and start making a noise about it........or perhaps an electrically assisted hybrid gasoline......the ACO would probably love to have a hybrid join the ranks, as they like new technology........ old sparky (Panoz-Zytek) was well recieved if I remember correctly

[SebringMG]

I really do not see many other manufacturers wanting to enter diesels - the big two diesel manufacturers PSA and VW are allready racing with diesels who else is left ? Acura and Porsche will not go diesel - Renault may, Nissan not and most of the other manufacturers would not either, the only probablility who would go diesel is BMW or Merc. It all comes down to there marketability in reality and the US market (being the biggest) does not even recognise diesels (tho audi trying to change this).

And lets be honest ricardo/judd have a diesel design through the early development stages and that appears to have stalled through a distinct lack of a manufacturer tie up !!! And i do not believe that customer units are viable yet w/o a product to show for it!!

The petrol turbo is the most likely to have a manufacturer walk up and buy it or even for a privateer to lease!!! All i can think of is that the privateers are scared off by the cost (Cosworth have admitted in the past that it prob gonna be more expensive than equivalent customer units) and that manufacturer interest is limited atm (maybe the diesel rules). AERs P1 engine has met with less than the expected levels of results and you have got to wonder if people are too scared to swap from the safe option of a Judd V10 ?

[knighty]

yup, I agree......diesels have been done, and I dare say another manufacturer will want to do something different.......hence I wrote this bit about hybrids.

Originally Posted by knighty

or perhaps an electrically assisted hybrid gasoline......the ACO would probably love to have a hybrid join the ranks, as they like new technology........ old sparky (Panoz-Zytek) was well recieved if I remember correctly

[Mal]

Originally Posted by knighty

yup, I agree......diesels have been done, and I dare say another manufacturer will want to do something different.......hence I wrote this bit about hybrids.

The obvious candidate is Toyota who are into Hybrids in a big way.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by knighty

While I think its sad that such a fantastic company has fell out of F1.......I do think the boys that run Cosworth need to take a reality tablet........if I was a manufacturer looking to enter sports endurance racing, which way would I like to go.......hmmm.......would I go the DI-3.6 turbo route or the 5.5 diesel route........not hard is it.........its the diesel route my a country mile.......

why the hell they are bothering with a DI-3.6 gasoline engine is beyond me........

Becuase in less than 12 months time any percieved diesel advantage will be wiped away through reg changes.

Afterall, the ACO want all engine configerations to be equally competitive, or as close as can be achieved.

The honeymoon period for diesels is about to close, next year everyone will be complaining about the advantage of petrol etc. hybrids..............

It is a shame a team doesn't take the plunge with the Cosworth, the long term prospects have to be better than the Judd V10, or am I wrong.

[knighty]

not really.......bearing in mind Judds extensive experience of endurance racing, and the results to back it up, and their lack of overheads compared with cosworth, as Judd are a very small company, and cosworth aint!.......to quote Mr Short, Judd does a very good job for the money.......the 5.5 is proving to be a fantastic engine for small teams without manufacturer budgets.......... I cannot wait so see the Pescarolos, Lolas and new Creation start to show their true speed and reliability at leMans........I dare say the cosworth LMP1 3.6 turbo engine had a horrendous price tag attached to it, thats probably why its still in the corner of the workshop.

as for the Mountune LMP675 4-pot......why pay mountune to develop something thats already available from AER.......privateer teams will always take the proven easy option, hence Judd have all the business, and Cosworth have none.

Originally Posted by JAG

It is a shame a team doesn't take the plunge with the Cosworth, the long term prospects have to be better than the Judd V10, or am I wrong.

[gwyllion]

Cosworth seems to think the diesel advantage will be reduced in the future.

"Maybe right now the advantage is a little too much, but give it a couple of years and they'll shift the restrictor sizes around and it'll all even up. Again, I think that's a sensible reality of life. I think they actually do a pretty good job of making it a fairly level playing field."

[ss_collins]

Yes its old news I've seen the engine - just sat in a corner in the build shop as I understand it - its ready to run- will probably end up like the Ford/Mountune LMP2 engine

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Yes its old news I've seen the engine - just sat in a corner in the build shop as I understand it - its ready to run- will probably end up like the Ford/Mountune LMP2 engine

There is (or at least was) a pic of this engine on the Cosworth website

[ss_collins]

Hybrids - Honda are a long way down that route, Zytek are planning one and Peugeot want to do one according to their technical director

see here

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjune06.html under the pic of the R10 engine bay

[JAG]

So what do you think Judds next move will be?

Does the V10 still have it's routes in the old F1 motor?

If they're going up against increasingly economical diesels and hybrids, wouldn't Judd have to go along the turbo route or some radical hybrid?

We saw the Audi V8 turbo could strecth it's fuel allocation, can an atmo engine do so as effectively?

[SebringMG]

Next move fot Judd will be the new AIM motor i would think!! 6 litre V10 should be a clean sheet design retaining best features of the current engine.

I would think the AIM engine will eventually replace the current engine as the customer unit.

[ss_collins]

as for the Mountune LMP675 4-pot......why pay mountune to develop something thats already available from AER.......privateer teams will always take the proven easy option, hence Judd have all the business, and Cosworth have none.

Nails and head I suspect, but I know that Le Mans (prototypes) is a medium to long term goal for Mountune and with Juno fairly open about its aspirations to do a proper LMP with its existing partners (EPM technology and Mountune). I've a load of pics of the Mountune MT1 on my work computer, but then my love of unfufilled projects is well known!

[knighty]

apologies for the trumpet blowing......I have a load of pics of it too....... in my portfolio.......I designed the crankshaft, piston, con-rod and the entire inlet system for the MT1.........its an old motor now, and the goalposts have moved a great deal.........the old AER 4 pot was a light motor........and the new AER mazda 4-pot is a great deal lighter again........I reckon the MT1 would be about 30 to 40Kg over weight.......not a good starting point.

As for Judds next move.......6.0 is the logical step......they need to produce bags of torque from a normally aspirated motor, as the restrictor will limit power......but not so much torque.......this is best done with a small bore and long stroke, with a bore in the region of 83mm, and a stroke of about 93mm.......as the bigger the capacity, the less revs you need, hence you dont need big valves and big bores, its a waste of time on a low revver........look at F3 engines for a fine example of low revving torque monsters, small bore, long stroke - pull like trains.

I wouldnt be surprised if Judd are still in F1 bore/stroke mentality, whereby the stroke is small, and the bore is massive.........this is completley the opposite of whats required for a low revving application.