Coupes from 2010

[isynge]

According to a reasonably substantial report in Autosport the rumour about LMP1 going down the Coupe-only route is fact as of 2010. All other chassis/engine rules will remain the same.

Not entirely certain if I'm really pleased or a touch disappointed yet - first impression is probably the former, but you never know...

[Fogelhund]

From Speed TV.

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/alms/26627/

he Automobile Club d'Ouest (ACO), organizers of the 24 Hours of Le Mans, has announced the extinction of the "roadster" prototypes that have dominated the race in the past few years as, from 2010 onwards, only coupes will be allowed to compete in the event's top class, LMP1.

Current LMP1 specs allow for both coupes and open-top prototypes; however, by the current set of regulations, the roadsters have proven to have the competitive edge. In the last seven years, only one coupe - Bentley's EXP Speed 8 in 2003 - has claimed overall honors at La Sarthe.

The measure intends to make the top Le Mans machines more recognizable for the public as coupes look closer to road cars. The specs for the second prototype class, LMP2, will remain unaffected, allowing roadsters to race on in the junior category.

"People should be able to identify with the front-running technology of the 24 Hours of Le Mans," said ACO sporting director Daniel Poissenot. "We have discussed this with the manufacturers, and there will be no choice to have an open roof from 2010. Cars will still use the same engines and bottom chassis.

"This will be the spirit of Le Mans for the future."

The new regulations will also be in effect for all championships that abide to ACO's specs, including the American Le Mans Series in the U.S.

[Erki]

Wonder what Audi mgiht think about this one. :\

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Erki

Wonder what Audi mgiht think about this one. :\

By 2010 the R10 will be in its fifth year of competition, which suggests either time for a new car, or is it a coincidence that 2009 will see Audi's tenth entry and them thinking about whether it's time to do something else?

In any case, as the chassis rules remain the same it shouldn't be impossible to design an R10 with coupe bodywork. I know it's more than 20 years ago but Joest have experience of turning an open car into a coupe with their 936 in 1982.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Erki

Wonder what Audi mgiht think about this one. :\

They will be able to race 4 years with the R10 (2006-2009), which is a bit less than the life time of the R8.

[DCC]

Is there any difference between a closed top and an open top? Why do the manufacturers prefer open ones?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by DCC

Is there any difference between a closed top and an open top? Why do the manufacturers prefer open ones?

A very rough summary of the advantages: closed car have less drag and open cars have a lower centre of gravity.

Why does everybody build open ones? Closed ones are more difficult (so expensive) to design because of the cockpit: fogging of windscreen if it rains, heat if it is hot (obligatory air conditioning), the doors, ...

[gwyllion]

On racing1.de I also read the rear wing will be made smaller to make the cars slower

[prototype]

As a fan I really like the way the coupes look. But it concerns me that the ACO constantly change the rules. I think this really discourages development of new cars because manufacturers don't want to spend R&D money on a car that is ruled obsolete in 2 or 3 years.

This could really hurt the number of manufacturers entering into the sport. I want sportscar to return to multiple factory efforts competing, and I am not sure this is the way to do that.

Just my 2 cents.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by prototype

As a fan I really like the way the coupes look. But it concerns me that the ACO constantly change the rules. I think this really discourages development of new cars because manufacturers don't want to spend R&D money on a car that is ruled obsolete in 2 or 3 years.

I think I'm a little bit more of an optimist. Five years is about right for the life cycle of a car. Looking back the 956/962 was no longer absolutely bleeding edge by 1987. The MGs that Highcroft and Autocon are running this year first showed up in 2001 and I think we'd all agree they're no longer right at the front. sure the R8 is, as ever, the exception to this but that just makes it even more of an exceptional car (and it wasn't pushed as hard by the presence of other major manufacturers).

The ACO is also pretty good at slowly phasing in these sort of rules. That's why they're looking at 2010 for the coupe only restriction. It basically means that if I was starting an LMP project now and wanted to go down the open car route I could legitimately think about having a car that could have a gestation year in 07, be fully competitive in 08/09, and I could either sell it on to a grandfathered series (JLMC for example), convert it to LMP2, put a coupe body onto it, or regard it as having done a decent job and put it in the museum.

The other key which tips this into the "good idea" category for me is that it puts some clear daylight between LMP1 and 2, which we haven't really had for a very long time. If they were proposing that barchettas would disappear entirely from Le Mans then I would be very sad - diversity is what make Le Mans great - but they're still there in LMP2 as a perfectly valid proposition.

[Supercar]

Originally Posted by prototype

As a fan I really like the way the coupes look. But it concerns me that the ACO constantly change the rules. I think this really discourages development of new cars because manufacturers don't want to spend R&D money on a car that is ruled obsolete in 2 or 3 years.

This could really hurt the number of manufacturers entering into the sport. I want sportscar to return to multiple factory efforts competing, and I am not sure this is the way to do that.

Just my 2 cents.

That was my first thought too. I'd rather see cars being eligible to race for as longs as they are competitive - up to 5 or more years, and not being made obsolete by some shifting and arbitrary regulations. If someone still wants to run an open top in LMP1, I'd say let 'em.

A "cynical way to attract OEM's"? You bet it is! ACO would not annonce this if they hadn't checked with all the current and potential future competitors, that are knocking at the door.

Talking about doors... Expect to see several new OEM's in 2010+ with cool looking cars and unbelievanle aerodynamics, and doors. Hopefully not those MC-12 types, those were not pretty, even for a GT. Maybe more like McLaren F1 or similar. Are we going back to the Steve McQueen era?

Now the problem will become that there will be too many GT-looking cars on the fields. How will you then be able to tell between them?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

On racing1.de I also read the rear wing will be made smaller to make the cars slower

But by 2010 the current cars would be down to 3.20 at Le Mans, if left unchanged from 2006 spec.


As the years go by, wings will become smaller, but the teams will gain back the downforce with development.

10-15 years down the line cars may have no more than a gurney type device, yet still be as quick as a current car.

BTW, just read the rear wings will be based on the GT1 regs. By this do they mean the width of the windscreen, i.e. the changes that gave the Saleens so many issues.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by JAG

But by 2010 the current cars would be down to 3.20 at Le Mans, if left unchanged from 2006 spec.

As the years go by, wings will become smaller, but the teams will gain back the downforce with development.

10-15 years down the line cars may have no more than a gurney type device, yet still be as quick as a current car.

ACO says they want to keep 3:30 as reference time for LMP1.

[zac510]

I don't see why they can't just tweak the existing rules to make closed top cars more viable? They could do this effective 2007/2008. All current cars are still competitive. New cars have the option to go either way..

[enemy-ace]

From a purely selfish viewpoint I will be sad to see the departure of the open-tops from the premier class. However I can see how it will help the general public differenciate the different classes.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

Real cars have roofs.

I've never enjoyed the open top prototypes from an aesthetic point of view so this news has made my day.

[Erki]

But where did I hear about R10's 10-year long lifespan?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Erki

But where did I hear about R10's 10-year long lifespan?

The only reason the R8 had such a long lifespan was due to the lack of competition.

With competition you'd expected major chassis changes every 3, at most 4 years.

Looks at Mercedes, CLK - CLKLM - CLR, 3 new cars in 3 years.

Even P2 teams are upgrading at regular intervals, Belmondo for example will be ditching the C65 for the LC75 next year.

If you read the statement it also quite clearly says the bottom chassis and engines will remain the same, so development work on a current car could be carried over to a new one.

IMO, this is fantastic news.

[ger80]

The lifetime of four year cant be a problem for Audi, the Bentley had a smaller lifetime
Think they are able to use a mix of Bentley EXP8 and R10 for 2007 if they want.
Maybe its even possible to get the LMP1 crash test with the EXP8 tube, all other things didnt realy change for a closed car if you look at the tube only

[aeroehl]

Is the weight limit still going to be 925 kg? I know Audi had a tough time getting under 900 kg. So a roofed car through common sense will probably weigh more.

[dj choc ice]

i think this is a cynical move in a way to attract more big manufacturers back to lemans, its been a dry past 5/6 years for big manufacturers in LMP1, since 2000 the only major big LMP1 manufacturers have been audi, bentley, panoz and cadillac which is pretty poor were many big manufacturers like ferrari, porsche, aston martin, chevrolet have concentrated on their GT1 and or GT2 campaigns so i think this closed regs rule will bring back some big lemans names especially from the japanese pack such as toyota, nissan, honda who are already making their LMP2 which will debut soon into an LMP1 and also i feel we could see a return of renault and mercedes and BMW on the horizon soon with these new regs and the promise of diesel and alternative fuels putting a lot of limelight on sportscars at the moment

[gwyllion]

The increase from 900 to 925 kg was because of the obligatory air conditioner for closed cars. I doubt they will increase the weight again.

The weight of the Bentley was close to minimum. So if the A/C really weighs around 25 kg, they could have gone to 925 kg.

However, diesel cars will also have a harder time getting there, especially when running with a roof. The Audi R10 currently is 35 kg too heavy.

[JAG]

Coups + alternative fules = more manufactuers.

Cynical, who cares, seems common sense to me.

At a stroke they give the fans great looking cars, make the engines relevant to future road cars, and make a clear distinction between P1 and P2.

The protoype scene makes a lot more sense to the general public after this announcement.

[dj choc ice]

i morely meant cynical in the good way than the bad way, i cant wait till these rules come in because i think the cars will be quicker in astraight line overall and also you are right, there will be a more clear distinction between LMP1 and LMP2, i wont like the fact that some of the smaller good teams like pescarolo would be snuffed out as well as creation but these teams could maybe buy a car from a big manufacturer which would be great news and also i think in a few years barazi epsilon in LMP2 could very well be in LMP1 after their fantastic pace and reliability in the LMP2 category i love those guys lol

[Fogelhund]

Relating strictly to the ALMS, I would speculate that they will extend their grandfathering phase, allowing privateers to run closed tops through to 2012. That kind of shelf-life isn't all bad.

It would be nice if they'd mandate LMP2's to be open topped, to keep a clear differentiator in the classes.