Pre 66 Viable?

[Noodle30]

Hi all

Would just like to get a feel for the realities of competing in pre 66 touring cars. I currently run in a modern championship but would love to get involved in this (sideways seems best ), however, Ive heard mixed reports on what it takes....do I need to be a multi millionaire (appreciate it would help).

Falcons/mustangs appeal most, with the cost seeming to be £40 to £80k ish for existing cars (or £40k ish in bits plus labour for a new build)...which is ok...however, have heard some horror stories about running costs and what it takes to be competitive. This is a VERY early stage query where I am just trying to work out whether its even worth considering? Ive been to one of the races and had a few chats but it would be good to get an independent view point?

Also, the 70s touring cars seem to be on the rise, will people migrate to this in the near future....is there a danger that pre66 will decline etc?

Apologies if any of this utterly naive!

Best

Alex

[Peter Mallett]

Hi Alex,

The current trend for 70s to 90s Touring cars is unlikely to impact the pre 66 brigade, not least because an App K 1965 car can be, but does not have to be, an original car prepared in period. Cars racing in the MRL or HSCC Touring Cars events have to be original racing cars, so effectively two different animals. At least the aim of the latter is originality although there are some replicas racing but I understand these may well be phased out as more original cars come to light.

[Beany]

I run a 1965 VW beetle in the HSCC Historic Touring Car Championship. Bought the car as a wreck, restored it, added all the safety bits, suspension and brake mods and tuned the engine...Total cost £15,000 (and that's with paying someone else to do all the work, so do it yourself for £12,000!)

Competitive?...Not yet cos i'm a newb to racing, but last weekend at Silverstone my 1300cc Beetle qualified 15th out of 21 cars with lap times quicker than some V8's and Porsches on the day and the bugs getting quicker every round.

Choose your car wisely and it can be very cheap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP9NGNseacQ

[Peter Mallett]

Yes to clarify, my reference to HSCC Touring Cars was not the By Box series mentioned by Beany.

[Al Weyman]

So why shouldn't post 66 cars also allow replicas this pre 66 thing has gone on too long IMHO. Time to open it up to later cars.

[terence]

Phone call to the FIA?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

So why shouldn't post 66 cars also allow replicas this pre 66 thing has gone on too long IMHO. Time to open it up to later cars.

Al, both the MRL and the one run by HSCC (name escapes) are for original cars, which is why I'm restoring the Lovett car. CTCRC and CSCC have places for replicas etc. Can't see the problem. My point was that the philosophy between app k and the series mentioned are different so in my opinion the one will not impact on the other. For example I believe Patrick Watts still races his Mustang even though he's re commissioned his original BTCC GP A Metro.

[Al Weyman]

CTCRC has amalagamated pre 74's with Pre 83's now.

[Noodle30]

Thanks for the responses, it appears that there may or may not be a period of "flux" for both series in the future then? Can anyone provide an insight into competing in the Masters series.....appreciate there will be a vast difference in the approaches by different competitors - I would just like to get a sense of what it takes to be reasonably competitive and also what peoples' view of the long term health of the championship?

As I said, apologies for the basic questions - I was unable to get to Brands and heading off to Spa etc to gain more info requires a reasonable level of commitment

[Beany]

Originally Posted by Noodle30

I would just like to get a sense of what it takes to be reasonably competitive

Can't help you with the costs of running a V8 but I was chatting with Roger Godfrey who races a Mini Cooper in the HSCC ByBox Championship and he said it costs him £1000 per race (if you add up fuel, entry, repairs and upkeep on the car).

Rogers is a top running car, always in the top 10, often on the podium and outright winner on a good day.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Noodle30

.....appreciate there will be a vast difference in the approaches by different competitors - I would just like to get a sense of what it takes to be reasonably competitive

A lot depends on what you consider to be 'reasonably competitive' as much depends on driver ability.
To have a front running pre-66 FIA App K car costs a lot of money (£50,000 plus, in my opinion) and probably a top preparation company to look after it, so a lot of running costs.
HSCC/HRSR spec costs quite a lot less but even there the prep companies are beginning to be seen.

[Al Weyman]

Well my 1970 car has been accepted into CSCC Swinging Sixties and is where I will give it a go in the future. I cannot be asked to race on front sliding caliper brakes and rear drums as fitted to the 2nd Gen with no factory four pot fronts or rear discs as fitted as an option to the 1st gen cars but no problem with CSCC where I can run what I want provoded they fit within 15" rims, I raced with the sliding calipers once and had to have special pads made at a fortune and the lasted one race and bent like a banana and faded at the end of the Revitt, only for the brave or fool hardy IMO. I can also race it as light as I can get not the massive weight I have to in some series. IMHO for a car of this weight and power its folly and as for getting it through an MoT for some classes and / or driving it to the circuit, well that is just a joke for a race car imho. Some of these tight regs makes racing old cars extremelly expensive and will only get worse as genuine parts like 289 V8 Ford blocks slowly disappear they are already asking a premium for them. I have also tred to use old rotton genuine cylinder heads and had big problems in the past when after market reliable copies are off the shelf it makes no sense to me.

[zefarelly]

Being competitive is expensive.

Even if you do everything yourself.

how old or new your car is, is almost irrelevant in that respect.

[Al Weyman]

Of course it is but being tied into unsuitable components because years ago someone didnt bother to race the model or homologate parts for it while others did all seems a bit daft to me. If a modification is allowed on one car surely it should be allowed on all otherwise you end up the same old story like with the LOtus Cortina, just one model being worth racing.

[Beany]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

If a modification is allowed on one car surely it should be allowed on all.

I have to agree, My HSCC/HRSR Beetle adds a bit of variety to what could be a grid of simply Lotus Cortinas, Minis and Anglias.

Beetles were raced 'in period' but with no more than 75-95bhp...The Bybox Championship allows me to tune the VW to the same spec as the Mini's, so we are on equal terms.

Great for the drivers..Great for the spectaters!

An Appendix K Beetle would be uncompetitive (and cost more to build)

[kickstart]

Like most racing being competitive is always going to cost money and having the ultimate engine etc will increase the cost considerably
If you look at the front of the pre 66 touring car circus I would think it is safe to assume that serious money is being spent - if you are not bothered about winning or not quick enough (no insult intended) then a lot of fun can be had further back with maybe £10k per year all in
Much depends on what you want to do and if it includes Spa 6 hours, Old timer GP, Pau etc then this will have a dramatic effect on costs

[zefarelly]

I reckon on 1-2k a race depending on duration, and location. and all prep is by me as well. I don't like to think about it or I'll stop and spend my money wisely!

My cars pretty period, and rarely competitive, BUT, being FiA/HTP'd is highly eligible, which was the whole idea from day 1.

[Noodle30]

Well Ive heard of some ridiculous (touring car style) numbers when it comes to budgets. What Im trying to work out is this just places 1 & 2 and then everything else is reasonable or is it a case of "if you have to ask what it costs.....dont even think about".

I LOVE the cars. Love the style of driving. Love the idea of competing in the odd Euro event but want a car that can mix it with most if not all?

I guess the other questions was trying to establish whether investing time and money in pre66 car is sensible if in 3 or 4 years the series has gone "flat" or other things have taken over?

PS on the 70s stuff, is it really going to be original race cars only - I appreciate people race original group C but is someone really going to enter an original Batmobile....surely this approach will really limit the growth of the series....which will probably help pre 66?

[James Murray]

Reasonable is proportional to the amount of disposable income, the big boys in historics will spend less %age of their disposable income than the average weekend warrior. 50k minimum spend on a car to be mid grid in FIA pre66 saloons I would guess unless you can build it yourself. You could buy a Monaco/Goodwood eligible single seater for less and go significantly faster. Crazy :-)

[zefarelly]

pre66 tin tops are expensive, I'm currently restoring/building a pre 63 GT car and its cheaper.

engines are a major investment if you want to be competitive. Then the rest of the running gear falls apart . . . . then its time to say, stop it, this is silly.

I think a gp1 pre 66 series for bog standard cars would be fun, and cheap. Trouble is, there aren't any left.

[GORDON STREETER]

Obviously for people like Joe and myself who have a vast collection of parts built up over the years and the knowledge to build/make just about everything we can do it cheaper.
If you have to pay someone else to do everything then you need to do the lottery every week, unless you happen to be born with a silver spoon in your mouth.
There is no way that I could afford to do any racing if I didn't like Joe do everything myself !
As we have said on many occasions it's cheaper to buy a "known car" than building one from scratch.

[JonWolfe]

After 20 years in club racing with 750MC, TSSC, TR Register, MGCC etc I moved to App K Historic. I have a App K Falcon and share Dave T's App K Grantura...being competitive absolutely depends on what you choose to race, your budget and which club you choose. I now race with CSCC, FISC, HSCC and Masters and there are huge differences in standards of prep, driving ability and levels of modification in all those clubs. Basically being competitive in any Historic category is very expensive and takes a long time to learn to drive the cars...if you build it yourself you will be way off the pace until you work out why everyone else is going so much quicker than you. If you want a good entry point to Historic tin top racing I would start with a ready-built MGB, there are plenty out there at about £25k, they are relatively easy to drive and you'll always get your money back when you come to sell it.

[morninggents]

I agree that the MGB is the perfect starter car - not too expensive, holds it's value and reliable.
Unfortunately it's not a 'tintop' in the pre-66 App K Touring Car category that the opening poster wanted.

Regarding the question of pre-66 or 70s Touring Car the costs of building and running a Group 2 Escort, Capri or Batmobile will be far higher than for a pre-66 Lotus Cortina, Alfa or BMW 1800. 1600 FIA twincams are expensive but look cheap against a BDA?BDG for an Escort.

[Beany]

Maybe the way forward is to pick a car that you love first of all and pick one that you know will be cheap to build, race and repair...and get racing.

You won't be at the top initially, but at least you'll know if historic/classic racing is for you and you'll have a better idea of the costs...Then if after the first season you find yourself wanting more...throw more money at the car or step up another class.

The podium is everyones dream, but (personal opinion) i'd rather be fighting tooth and nail for 15th place than (and you see it all the time) a lonely leader with empty mirrors.

[rogerwills]

I'd buy a Falcon, Mustang or similar and you will have a ball. Any of these well driven and running legal spec will run easily in top 5-10 and not cost an arm and a leg. The "arms race" that is going on at present seems to be in Lotus Cortinas where they are lapping faster than they ever have (or ever did) and some people are spending insane amounts of money. This is something you want to avoid. The V8s are relatively inexpensive to run and will usually have you nearer the front unless it is really wet where the smaller cars, especially Minis, come into their own.

To me pre-66 is the way to go. The options for racing these cars is endless and the quality of the races as well as track time offered is excellent. I'd always choose a 1 hour race at a good circuit over 8 laps or 15 mins somewhere average and I reckon (although I never did the maths) that the cost per minute when you add in all your transport etc is about the same per minute of track time.

I'd not be worried about having a car and nowhere to run. Pre-66 will always thrive in my view and while I love the 70s stuff, there is much more to do with a pre-66 car and I can't see that changing in a hurry.

There are also things like Spa 6 Hours where a touring car has its own trophy and is one of the best races around. I'd challenge anyone to tell me there is more to do with a 70s car than a pre-66 touring car. No way.