Posted without comment

[indycool]

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journal...ts/7726278.htm

[Flatspot]

Therein lies the many truths. Unified or not C^RT, OWRS IRL whatever, open wheel racing is far from out of the woods.

[oily oaf]

I think the fella has hit the nail full square on the head.

[gttouring]

poignant comment- and quite true
but i feel that with one series, the rise is possible where two donkey fighting for the same carrot had zero chance, One ass might.

[GP Racer]

Excellent article!

I hope all those who laced into me when I posted my opinion that the lack of American drivers, played a huge role in the demise of CART, read this article!

Anyone who thinks that this series will go on without them, is deluding themselves. Guys on this forum will watch, because there hard core race fans, but the average sports fan, sitting at home on his couch, will turn to football, baseball, or yes, NASCAR, because its catering to him, and he's instantly comfortable with the names and whats going on. If they can find a CART race, they will lose interest as soon as the grid is read off. There's nothing there to make him care.

Sorry, if I've rambled to long on this subject, but I believe its one of the major reasons for the downfall of this series. I guess I'm just amazed that so few people here believe it...

[The Treester]

GP Racer, your not alone!

But I'm a die hard from the technical side of the sport; cars and tracks, and of course driver talent! I don't give a hoot where the drivers are from as long as they're racing Champ Cars on a road course, preferably! But that's not good enough for majority of the fans to make a strong series in the US.

Oval racing is easier to follow and relate to for the average Joe/Jane due to the fact that in certain cities you can go watch Saturday night oval races in just about anything on four wheels (usually cheap). Where less you have to be a SCCA member and travel a little bit to see an open wheel car [(fa, fc, ff, fm)somewhat expensive] race once a month (on the average). Just my personal input!

NASCAR/IRL is K.I.S.S. for the fans and
CART is M.I.T. for the fans

Before this turn into a debate, this is just MY PERSONAL OPINION.

[Liz]

Virtually everybody at the top level in baseball today is from the Dominican Republic, Cuba or other South American countries. I never hear any whining about the lack of Americans in baseball. Almost everybody in basketball is Black, but I don't hear people crying that white people won't go to basketball games unless we get more white guys on the court. (Well the Toronto Star says there are too many white guys on the Blue Jays, but nobody listens to them.) Why is it that only in racing do we hear this persistent cry that Americans won't cheer for people who aren't Americans?

Would Bernie be moving Formula One to India and Bahrain which both lack native born drivers, if this hypothesis were true? Bernie didn't get obscenely rich by misjudging the marketplace. And if you look at the grid in the American Le Mans, we ought to be running most of our races in Germany.

As the noble Treester says above, this is my opinion as a citizen of the galaxy and a lady to boot.

[dirtfan]

With about 1100 short tracks in the US, it's more than "certain cities"
In the LA area, for road racing, it's Willow Springs, Club racing, way out in the Mojave Desert.
For OW racing, I guess it's Northern Cal or Phoenix.
And it's not "once a month"

[The Treester]

Here we go again, I was being modest!

I wasn't counting the 900 dirt tracks in da south!!!
j/k

Relax, and thanks for the clarification, my bad!

[MLM]

Originally posted by Liz
Virtually everybody at the top level in baseball today is from the Dominican Republic, Cuba or other South American countries. I never hear any whining about the lack of Americans in baseball. Almost everybody in basketball is Black, but I don't hear people crying that white people won't go to basketball games unless we get more white guys on the court. (Well the Toronto Star says there are too many white guys on the Blue Jays, but nobody listens to them.) Why is it that only in racing do we hear this persistent cry that Americans won't cheer for people who aren't Americans?

As the noble Treester says above, this is my opinion as a citizen of the galaxy and a lady to boot.

Yup, someone forgot to tell me that I shouldn't root for Brazilians, adore Italian opera(over good o'l American musicals), and enjoy British comedy over American...my bad!

I can't TOTALLY agree that the dearth of American drivers drove OW racing to the brink of extinction.
It didn't help, either, but that certainly didn't drive all nails in the coffin.
BUT, I think several factors contributed, too...and we've discussed all of them here.

[macdaddy]

The lack of American drivers is a problem for promoting the series to the general public. Race fans such as ourselves may prefer to see talent over nationality, but we're few and far between. Joe Fan is reluctant to use a "household name" which he cannot pronounce.

I am quite sure that none of the Canadian Grands Prix would be nearly as successful if there were no Canuck drivers.

Having said that, CART was somewhat successful in marketing Helio.

[MLM]

True, macdaddy,the operate word is "the general public".
No wonder H.L. Mencken referred to them as "the Booboisie" ( ie: play on words on the "bourgeousie")

Whenever I try to explain to my "racing illiterate" friends about CART/Champ Car racing, I find myself saying "well, they're kind of like the cars which race the Indy 500"
I don't even try to explain the Split, the politics, etc... they wouldn't get it.

At the same token, these people also know who Dominican-born Sammy Sosa is!

[The Treester]

Heeeyyyyyyy!!!!!!

Nothing wrong with being social/high-end (whateva) class if ya work to get there, don't ya thank?



MLM,

When I explain to folks that I'm affiliate with racing the first thing they say is, "is it NASCAR, I watch NASCAR"! Also, they have no clue that there's nothing stock about NASCAR!

So I'm totally there w/ ya bud!

[GP Racer]

I'm with you guys there, as are many others on this forum, I'm sure.

If you talk about any other form of racing other than NASCAR, you kind of get that thousand yard stare back, that blank look that says, "what the #%&^ are you talking about?". The more you talk about it, the more they zone out and all they here coming out of your mouth is "blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, and there mind is telling them "this guys nuts, cars without fenders, going left AND right, wohh, this guy needs help man".

Finally, when your done he says, "yeah, that sounds cool", but somehow you don't think he really thinks its cool...

[zerO]

Originally posted by indycool
http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journal...ts/7726278.htm

Hey Coolie,
that article is complete garbage and you know it... TG has been out to screw CART since 1993 !!! - then in 1995 came the official "split" ?!... the wounds will never be healed, TG never wanted a "merger", doesn't want it now, and never will !!!... the -EDIT- thinking of his shall always be in the way - THERE NEVER SHALL BE ANY RECONCILLIATION !!!... and it's not just from the CART side, it's mainly from the IRL side... CART have extended an "olive branch" many times - TG didn't budge... now, it's year 2004, OWRS is buying-out CART and taking it private (just like TG's IMS & IRL are) - then we are going to deal with comparatives that are equally checkable... the IRL is in the same financial straits that CART is nowdays - if it wasn't for the BY400 there wouldn't be any freakin' IRL today - THAT SIMPLE !!!... IRL hasn't profited a single dime since it's inception, and it surely does't look like they will any time soon... on top of that, the Hulman family Trust is about to be taken away from TG and there will no longer be any extra monies to help the struggling little toy series and they'll defintely will falter come 2006 when the Japanese kiss TG "good-bye"... and then what ??? heh ???... who is going to race at the infamous Indy500, heh ??? - the IPS drivers, or will a premier OW racing series be invited: aka Champ Cars ?!?!... think about it ?!

zerO

Editted due to borderline libel. C'mon now! Know how many non-members peruse these forums? Know who all of them are?

[macdaddy]

The guys start talking SuperBowl at work, and I enjoy interjecting with "Yeah, but who do you think is gonna turn fast time in Laguna testing?" in a (vain) effort to be funny. To tell the truth, the guys at the shop know as much about CART as anybody, because it's the only sport that I can talk about! And forty hours is a long time.

Kinda sucks being a racing fan. When everybody else is watching football and hockey, I'm pulling my hair out over courtroom decisions that are out of my control.

[The Treester]

Originally posted by GP Racer
Finally, when your done he says, "yeah, that sounds cool", but somehow you don't think he really thinks its cool...

If I can only remember how many times I felt like that!

[The Treester]

Right on zerO!

[MLM]

Or, if you say "CART", they think you're talking about "go-kart racing"
You notice how we all have our own "language" (ie:racing terms, names, etc....).

Unfortunately macdady, you'reright about courtroom decisions out of our control.
In other sports, players go to a courtroom because of their "choices" (albeit, bad!). The participants of our sport don't choose...they're thrusted into the courtroom whether they like it or not!

[sgw2]

Liz,

You are again using false logic. The SF Giants, a team I root for has many folks I can relate too: Barry Bonds a local, who went to Serra High School on the Penninsula (one of a dozen schools parents send their kids if they excel in sports), Kirk Reuter, a West Virginia boy who really matches the Blue Collar type guy everyone relates to. And so on down the line. Even having foriegn players along side doesn't impact the situation much, becuase there are many you can relate to already.

In Auto Racing it is very much a singular person thing. The driver has to be somebody you can relate to. Most of us had to work to make money and we like the Blue Collar hero, especially if they have a home town connection. But a rich boy from South America is very very difficult to relate to. It is far easier to associate that Blue Collar image to an immigrant who works to become American - we have so many folks like that - that we adopt them. Alex Zanardi's image built that way, and his constant praise of America and all thins American went a long way toward building that Andretti like image.

But to give the argument that it is the fans responsibility to like whomever you present them with, or else you call them a bigot, is to say the least a leap in logic. It would be as if I called you a racist because you never dated a Chinese mainlander, or a communist because you didn't favor a particular tax cut.

Racing fans, like all fans, gravitate toward those they relate to. That CART has failed to give the fans something to relate to in the US is not the fans fault.

EDIT: What I saw was a personal attack if ever there was one.
I expect better.

[MLM]

I remember my Mom made I reference to Cristiano da Matta as a "South American playboy"...and I responded by laughing my head off!
In truth, he's a sweet, quiet, shy, little squirt...not at ALL a sterotypical "rich, South American playboy"! (which I said to Mum...and I mean it in all sincerity and affection)
The same could also be said of Bruno (albeit he's not as little as da Matta, hehe), Tony, etc...

I'd rather root for someone like them than some egotistical, boorish, multi-millionaire ,American playboy with a criminal record (like those who permeate the NBA, NFL, MLB, etc..)

Truesgw, too bad OW racing doesn't exploit THOSE facts.

[The Treester]

Ouch, MLM

I could be an ex-pro/college(typical american sports athlete)that has a lot of women...okay, okay, I'm awake now!

Dang, that was a good dream!



but true, that is why NASCAR is successful! Everyday Sponsors with everyday Joe drivers. Skilled of course!

Sidebar: Jr. is to cool to be a NASCAR driver, ONLY!

[GP Racer]

Well said sgw2!

[MLM]

Originally posted by The Treester
Ouch, MLM

I could be an ex-pro/college(typical american sports athlete)that has a lot of women...okay, okay, I'm awake now!

Dang, that was a good dream!



but true, that is why NASCAR is successful! Everyday Sponsors with everyday Joe drivers. Skilled of course!

Sidebar: Jr. is to cool to be a NASCAR driver, ONLY!

That was a rather pejorative statement I made Treester...point taken, you Valentino you!
And not all American athletes in the NFL, etc... are "bad guys". Look at Peyton Manning, Derek Jeter, David Robinson, etc...all good,soild citizens and role models.

It works beautifully in NASCAR because they have had for the past 10-15 years one of the most brillant marketing strategies in cooperate America.
Not too mention a single, iron-fisted power-structure in place (ie: the France Family and their minions) which doesn't tolerate dissention or rebellion in the ranks.

ps sidebar: I guess, if you were a guy,it would be cool to be Dale, Jr.
THAT'S who should be the next "It's Good to Be..." show (which features WHY the rich celebraties have it "better" than you and me...gag me, I know...like Paris Hilton could match MY IQ, LOL!) on VH1...or is that show on E!? I can't remember which channel that bloody show is on!

[dirtfan]

Dale Jr likes hanging around with his buds (and his BUD)in his private game room, and makes sure they dont drive home afterword. That's cool.
Ed Carpenter ran a Sprint at Perris a few times, and stood around in the pits afterword, talking with fans.
Tony Stewart owns Outlaw, USAC Sprint and USAC midget teams so he can hang out in the pits with his racing buddies, scraping mud, and to help out drivers on their way up. He also shows up at a few local shows (modifieds at Madera, Chili bowl,etc) just to have fun. If the foreign drivers would show up at some Sat night local shows, or Dave and Buster's, and meet the fans, they'd get a lot of American support, too.
Not like the F1 drivers who won't even acknowledge that are fans!
It's called MARKETING.
I ramble too much...