Unecessary Complication in Road Cars

[wnut]

I submit BMW:

"Attached is a photo of three of the washer pumps in a 1999 528i. Closest (left) is the headlight washer pump, then the rear washer pump, and on the inside the windshield washer pump. On the far, lower right is the level sensor. The fourth pump, on the reservoir in the engine compartment near the passenger fenderwell, is for the low-temperature ("intensive") washer fluid and has already been documented."

4 washer fluid pumps!
Not to mention electronically operated washer nozzle valves!

The plastic of the whole system degrades under temperature and the impellers corrode - nice little earner!

[MGDavid]

electric handbrakes
DSG and all other 'clutchless' gearchange apparatus short of full auto.
rain-sensing wipers
dark-sensing sidelights
paddle gearchanges

[Mike Harte]

Drivers!

[Akrapovic]

Arguably if you want all the new features, the complications are not unnecessary - they're required.

Can't you just get a low end model and not have any of the added complications? My Fiesta is bottom rung (was called the Freedom. How Scottish). Has no AC, no parking sensors...no anything sensors come to think of it. The only added electronics it has is electric mirrors, electric front windows, and an AUX input (56 plate, they weren't common at that time).

[Mike Bell]

'Poverty Spec', I call it! Long been a practitioner of it. Even my latest 'wheels' is base spec, apart from upgraded satnav...... Mind you, base spec still included loads of stuff that would happily live without!

One reason I enjoy driving my 1972 Escort is that it has nothing unnecessary to get in the way of the experience. And yet the simple crude heater will scorch your extremities in half the time something modern would take!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

'Poverty Spec', I call it! Long been a practitioner of it. Even my latest 'wheels' is base spec, apart from upgraded satnav...... Mind you, base spec still included loads of stuff that would happily live without!

One reason I enjoy driving my 1972 Escort is that it has nothing unnecessary to get in the way of the experience. And yet the simple crude heater will scorch your extremities in half the time something modern would take!

Yeah, I got heavily criticized for saying that my Escort was the best road car I had ever owned. I did not mean the fastest, quietest, most comfortable, most expensive or most complicated road car I ever owned. It just did what it was supposed to, and what it wasn't supposed to reliably, comfortably, economically and ... the modifications provided a lot of fun!
Clutch 45 mins, out back in and running, on my own!
Try that in any modern car!

Nothing difficult to work on!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

Yeah, I got heavily criticized for saying that my Escort was the best road car I had ever owned. I did not mean the fastest, quietest, most comfortable, most expensive or most complicated road car I ever owned. It just did what it was supposed to, and what it wasn't supposed to reliably, comfortably, economically and ... the modifications provided a lot of fun!
Clutch 45 mins, out back in and running, on my own!
Try that in any modern car!

Nothing difficult to work on!

I think most of the "criticism" was because you thought it was a coupe

To be fair there are plenty of old cars that are a pain to change the clutch on. It can quite often be an engine out job

I like the space around the engine bay, you often have, to work on old cars.

However I'm seeing things above that I think are good. There are some brilliant features on modern cars. Whether that's safety, comfort or convenience. But they have to done well with controls (if the feature needs it) that are intuitive, are ergonomic and sensible laid out. This is an issue old and new.

There are also features which aren't needed, but add something, if only entertainment. I like the simplicity of old cars, but also new car features like the car that raises the seat belt buckle so it is easier to find!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think most of the "criticism" was because you thought it was a coupe

Okay let's say that and move on.

Won't call it a coupe again.

Originally Posted by Adam43

To be fair there are plenty of old cars that are a pain to change the clutch on. It can quite often be an engine out job

I like the space around the engine bay, you often have, to work on old cars.

Also to be fair that was the appeal of the Escort, some of the old cars were indeed pigs to work on.

The space is great!

One of the irritants of modern cars are all the special tools they require, torx and security torx fasteners etc.

Originally Posted by Adam43

However I'm seeing things above that I think are good. There are some brilliant features on modern cars. Whether that's safety, comfort or convenience. But they have to done well with controls (if the feature needs it) that are intuitive, are ergonomic and sensible laid out. This is an issue old and new.

There are also features which aren't needed, but add something, if only entertainment. I like the simplicity of old cars, but also new car features like the car that raises the seat belt buckle so it is easier to find!

Many modern features are great, it is the totally unnecessary complexity, unreliability and cost of maintaining many of these features that bothers me, the feature is not a well thought out and well made elegant solution, but a cobbled together shambles that the owner is forced to service and pay for.

The so called security systems seem to epitomize the modern approach.

New key $500 plus programming. Really!

How many times is a dealer just plain unable to service or diagnose a problem?

[Tim Falce]

Tyre pressure monitoring systems

[Akrapovic]

Poverty spec! I like it, Mike.

Have to say though, even poverty spec cars have problems with things like this. My Fiesta has a high pitched whine from the speakers, which is linked to the revs. But it only does it when something is plugged into the cig lighter. Yeah...cars don't need to be complicated for silly things to go wrong. I believe I'm now deaf in my right ear from this whining noise.

[Alfaholic]

Lane keep assist systems.

[wnut]

Climate control!

On off switch works just fine for much longer than this over hyped rubbish!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

Lane keep assist systems.

There's an argument to be made that if you have the ability to make something safer, and save lives, it is a necessity.

We complain about added complication, but I want a car with an AUX input. I don't want to listen to the awful radio, and I don't own CDs. I want to listen to my podcasts. So I need this added tech.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

Lane keep assist systems.

As if Autoblog were reading TenTenths -

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/08/23/...und-ab-tile-33

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

As if Autoblog were reading TenTenths -

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/08/23/...und-ab-tile-33

Which is fine for single lane roads, but on motorways or dual carriageways they make people too lazy to move back into the left lanre.

[Mitchi_S]

Cool topic idea!

Originally Posted by wnut

"Attached is a photo of three of the washer pumps in a 1999 528i. Closest (left) is the headlight washer pump, then the rear washer pump, and on the inside the windshield washer pump. On the far, lower right is the level sensor. The fourth pump, on the reservoir in the engine compartment near the passenger fenderwell, is for the low-temperature ("intensive") washer fluid and has already been documented."

May I ask where you get this excerpt from?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mitchi_S

Cool topic idea!



May I ask where you get this excerpt from?

From here:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=676111

and here it is:

[midgetman]

Thirty years ago a family friend was always saying "why can't they produce simple cars like a Minor 1000 or Morris Marina that are cheap and gadget-less"! And he was only talking about electric windows and seats...

Personally I like climate control, although my views are now tempered by having paid £300 to have the blower motor and associated burned out gubbins replaced.

Anything computer controlled is dirt cheap, makes the car look more special and allows the price to rise. So you'll get more gizmos

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Personally I like climate control, although my views are now tempered by having paid £300 to have the blower motor and associated burned out gubbins replaced.

My Volvo truck has got an awesome 'climate' A/C, but of course has temperature sensors all over the place. If you park so that one sensor is in full sun, when you switch on again you get enough refrigerated air to make you dive for the off switch!

A few personal 'would rather not haves'- auto wipers, auto headlamps, electric tailgate / door closures, and electric seat adjustment! One of the better ideas that I would spec- electric folding door mirrors.

Talking of electric seats, when it came out, LR were making big boasts about the fact that the latest Disco has electric fold and adjustment for both rear rows. Not only that, but via a phone app, you can fold or unfold the seats from anywhere in the world! But why the **** would you want to.....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

My Volvo truck has got an awesome 'climate' A/C, but of course has temperature sensors all over the place. If you park so that one sensor is in full sun, when you switch on again you get enough refrigerated air to make you dive for the off switch!

A few personal 'would rather not haves'- auto wipers, auto headlamps, electric tailgate / door closures, and electric seat adjustment! One of the better ideas that I would spec- electric folding door mirrors.

Talking of electric seats, when it came out, LR were making big boasts about the fact that the latest Disco has electric fold and adjustment for both rear rows. Not only that, but via a phone app, you can fold or unfold the seats from anywhere in the world! But why the **** would you want to.....

The problem comes when one of the sensors dies or is out of phase with the others and then shuts down the whole system and the only way you can get it to reset is to plug it into the dealers diagnostic system.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

...Not only that, but via a phone app, you can fold or unfold the seats from anywhere in the world! But why the **** would you want to.....

I think that this is true of loads of 'modern' gadget's Mike, they do because they can which then makes things so complicated.
let's face it, most of us carry around a device in our pockets that we glibly refer to as a mobile 'phone yet this thing has more computing power than an Apollo Moon Rocket!
Modern vehicles are have more and more 'computer controlled' gizmo's. These are fine when the vehicles are new, the technology is reasonably fresh, and it all works well, in a few years time however...
I foresee the value of certain second-hand vehicle to hold really well up to a certain point it it's age, and then plummet when the expensive systems start to go down. Let's face it, hardly anyone mends anything nowadays, they just replace the whole unit, and it'll be the cost of these replacements that kippers the value of the vehicles.

[coppice]

Why on earth would I want to return to the parsimony and general awfulness of stuff I owned years ago like Escorts and BL1300s ? They weren't reliable , even if they were simple and they drank at least 50% more fuel than any modern equivalent , despite taking twice as long to get up to cruising speed .

My daily driver is a Skoda - nowt exotic, a Yeti 170 . But it has heated seats , cruise , rain sensing wipers , six speeds , climate control . hill descent and traction control and an 8 speaker stereo . In terms of go it's about the same as a 3 litre Capri but it does 50 mpg and not 25 .... And unlike my bloody awful Mk 2 Escort , it doesn't need servicing every 5 minutes .Unlike my late dad's succession of Triumph Herald and Vitesses the synchro isn't shot at 20 k miles ,it doesn't need decoking after acoupl of years and it doesn't go rusty if it looks like rain .

Hair shirt simplicity I can get in my Caterham - but as a daily driver it is not ideal . The only genuinely simple 'normal' car I have owned which I still rate highly was a 2CV - a car exactly fit for many purposes . If not for doing 80 mph in outside lane ......

[Number4]

The Vauxhall Insignia wagon has a second set of tail lights inside the car for when you are driving with the tail gate open.
I saw one a while back and still can't get my head around it.

[VIVA GT]

On the way to work this morning my car odometer 'clicked over' the 100,000 mile mark. Years ago this would have been a big event and I'd always try to see it happen, but when I got here today I noticed it read 100,004.
Is this no longer an event because it's noting special anymore for a car to reach that mileage, or is it less exciting to watch on a digital readout compared to the old mechanical odometer?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

On the way to work this morning my car odometer 'clicked over' the 100,000 mile mark. Years ago this would have been a big event and I'd always try to see it happen, but when I got here today I noticed it read 100,004.
Is this no longer an event because it's noting special anymore for a car to reach that mileage, or is it less exciting to watch on a digital readout compared to the old mechanical odometer?

It's no longer an achievement. My terrible 56 plate Fiesta has hit that, and that had a VERY rough life before I owned it, as it got the arse ragged out of it. If my badly made, poorly treated, budget hatchback can do it, then it's not a big deal. It's more of a big deal to hit 200,000 miles now. But even then, Skoda and VW diesels will hit that without breaking sweat. And you could push them for longer if you were willing to put in the money to do it, it just becomes uneconomical.