Would AWD work in touring car racing?

[I Rosputnik]

Would AWD work in touring car racing provided every car had it?

While I do know AWD was outlawed due to the Quattro and Godzilla being overpowered, I wonder if in this day and age where the humble car is getting more powerful and quicker, should touring car racing embrace it like rallying and rallycross has, as long as every car had it?

[andy97]

Well, the Audi A4 won in the Super Touring era & it had roughly the same power as everything else at the time so, as long as the weights were also allowed to be equal than it should work, I guess. People will tell you that AWD promotes understeer on tarmac but I'm not qualified to comment on that.

[KA]

Audi certainly made it work for them in Supertouring, but on the other hand Ford tried a 4x4 Mondeo in Germany and IIRC Spain (and didn't Nissan try a 4x4 Primera around the same time), and it was a dismal failure, so it's clearly not a guaranteed route to success...

[crmalcolm]

AWD would work, as proven recently. The question and poll reads to me more like a should AWD be introduced.
Recent Touring Car politics suggest the introduction of AWD would be a bad move.
Allowing AWD alongside FWD/RWD would cause even more parity/equalisation issues than either WTCC or BTCC could cope with at the moment and probably cause these series to collapse under rows between manufacturers.
Forcing all manufacturers to go AWD would also deter manufacturer entries. GM, Honda, Ford and recently Vauxhall would seem to have no interest in promoting an AWD car over their standard FWD. Similar for BMW and Mercedes with their RWD policy.
That would leave the independant - NGTC has been introduced to keep costs down, and without this would we see new cars such as the Audi, Toyota, Isignia or Proton in BTCC? Few teams would build new cars, with most relying on a supply of outdated machinery from the likes of RML, Dynamics, 888 etc.
It's hard to compare Circuit racing to Rallying, most casual observers would understand why a car has been converted to AWD, as they understand LandRovers, Shoguns, LandCruisers etc using AWD to drive off road. Whereas the casual observer expects a Touring Car to seem like it is still a roadgoing car. Hence it's postion alongside GTs and such with Touring Cars (usually) having smaller engines, smaller bodies, lower speed etc. and family car based technology.

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Forcing all manufacturers to go AWD would also deter manufacturer entries. GM, Honda, Ford and recently Vauxhall would seem to have no interest in promoting an AWD car over their standard FWD. Similar for BMW and Mercedes with their RWD policy.

But times are changing. Twenty years ago we have no or little AWD roadgoing cars. We thougth it for offroad (Diesels for trucks, minivan for big families). But now all cars tend to be universal, crossover. All manufacturers have in their line-up AWD cars.
The other important thing - manufacturers can be really equalized. Big deal.
Yes, independants is problem. But, maybe, it is possible to build not expensive, but competitive AWD transmission?

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Whereas the casual observer expects a Touring Car to seem like it is still a roadgoing car. Hence it's postion alongside GTs and such with Touring Cars (usually) having smaller engines, smaller bodies, lower speed etc. and family car based technology.

Maybe, maybe. If so, DTM, V8SC and NASCAR (and Superstars) must not exist. AWD can be a good alternative - roadgoing car, AWD transmission, 2l-turbo 400hp engine. Good for all.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Valenok

Twenty years ago we have no or little AWD roadgoing cars. We thougth it for offroad (Diesels for trucks, minivan for big families). But now all cars tend to be universal, crossover. All manufacturers have in their line-up AWD cars.

Twenty years ago, AWD seemed to be more promoted than currently I feel.
I remember lots being made of cars such as Cavalier 4x4, Calibra 4x4, Sierra XR4, Escort Cosworth, Audi Quattro, Lancia Delta, Celica GT4, SkyLine GT-R, BMW 325iX, 911 Carerra 4 etc.....
Most of these were promoted on the back of the performance of AWD, whereas current AWD seems to be mainly promoted on the basis of city driving.

[Carsandmotorracing]

The Godzilla made the bogans at the top of the mountain cry

[Sodemo]

I voted no, and i'll explain why. For one, I think it gives an AWD car an almost unbeatable advantage in wet conditions. Two, it makes cars handle too much "on rails". Thirdly, it just adds in another variable to be paritied into a formula. In an ideal world I would like to see one or two AWD cars like the BTCC Audi's of 1996 and 1997, however they added a load of weight to the cars in 1997 which made them uncompetitive. They removed some of that weight mid-season and were slightly better in the latter part of 1997.

[Greem]

What proportion of cars sold are AWD? Not an idle question, but one of genuine ignorance... when I look around the roads near me, I see a massively overwhelming percentage of transverse engined FWD, with a smaller percentage of RWD, and a teensy-weensy percentage of other variants. Excepting obvious AWD (which you wouldn't race!), are manufacturers hiding AWD behind innocent-looking badges?

[andy97]

Personally, I think that if the base car is AWD then it should be allowed; it would have an advantage in the wet but is perceived to have a disadvantage in the dry. You can't have everything equal - or its just a one make championship. There should be some room for innovation & if a manufacturer wanted to demonstrate his AWD technology then so be it. Where it is daft, is if a car that is 2WD only on the forecourt is allowed to be AWD on the track (or where a car that is FWD on the forecourt - Audi A4 - can be RWD on the track!)

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by andy97

Where it is daft, is if a car that is 2WD only on the forecourt is allowed to be AWD on the track (or where a car that is FWD on the forecourt - Audi A4 - can be RWD on the track!)

The Audi A4 is available as AWD on the forecourt - but NGTC is 2WD only so either FWD or RWD is allowed. Similarly if somebody wanted to use an Impreza in the BTCC they could go FWD or RWD.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

The Audi A4 is available as AWD on the forecourt - but NGTC is 2WD only so either FWD or RWD is allowed. Similarly if somebody wanted to use an Impreza in the BTCC they could go FWD or RWD.

Not quite. The only reason why the NGTC Audi is rear wheel drive is because the engine in the base car is longitudinal and TOCA don't have a FWD spec gearbox for that engine install layout.

For example... even though you can get a 4x4 Octavia.... you can't go RWD with that because the base car engine layout is transverse.... and TOCA has transverse FWD Spec gearbox.

[MJones94]

I answered no as well. The reason for this is that if you look at when Audi participated in the American Trans Am series in 1988 and the IMSA Championship in 1989. The cars were absolute monsters and dominated with 4 wheel drive against 2 wheel drive 300zx's, cougars etc. The same thing happened in 1997 where Audi entered several 4 wheel drive A4s into 6/7 national championships and at the end of the year got a clean sweep of all the championships (Don't hold me to that fact). I think AWD drive competing with FR and FF cars in the BTCC (as an example) would add another dimension to unequal parity.

Having said that, 2 wheel drive chassis and drivetrains have improved compared to AWD systems what with diffs etc. Despite this however, AWD cars have a distinct advantage over FF/FR/MR etc. cars when the tarmac is wet which you cannot really regulate unless you hold the race under a roof which would be absurd.

Like #crmalcolm mentioned, one of the reasons manufacturers race are to sell cars and if a car is not available with AWD in a showroom then it does not make sense if it does on the race track.

[gttouring]

It could be and it has been, but making it equal to other cars' drivetrain when all is equal is the hard partt. As mentioned the insane fast and sure footed audi did its damage to supertouring- wasn't it banned in BTCC the 4wd version? And it still runs in the mess of Speed world challenge or whatever it is called it was in the monstEr Audi R6R in GT and now 4wd was in the big Volvo in the 'GT' part of worldchallenge although it is not setting tracks all ablaze. It can be introduced but I prefer simple touring car layouts iether Rwd or Fwd. I like the purity of the racing...until rewards weight showed up but that is another matter

[Lin1876]

Without wishing to sound cynical, the BTCC has proven that it's possible to adapt the rules mid-season if someone happens to have developed a better car. So if someone did come in with a 4WD car and flew in the wet then the;d be forced to run slicks in all conditions.

So, why not? Variation is good in touring cars.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Lin1876

Without wishing to sound cynical, the BTCC has proven that it's possible to adapt the rules mid-season if someone happens to have developed a better car. So if someone did come in with a 4WD car and flew in the wet then the;d be forced to run slicks in all conditions.

So, why not? Variation is good in touring cars.

And the BTCC has also proven the political wrangling that follows when rules are adapted mid-season is not good for the sport's reputation.

The BTCC is in a transition phase, and at the moment are restricting what will become the standard car. In your hypothetical situation, you are effectively saying that if a team has a better car, they should be permanently restricted. IIRC, it happened to Audi with their AWD and they didn't hang around long after.

[SteveLevin]

The current situation BTCC finds itself in should be a reminder than before proposing anything with "equivalency" the proposer should have to write

"making things equal is NOT easy"

10,000 times on a chalkboard.

Steve

[dyewat808]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

And the BTCC has also proven the political wrangling that follows when rules are adapted mid-season is not good for the sport's reputation.

The BTCC is in a transition phase, and at the moment are restricting what will become the standard car. In your hypothetical situation, you are effectively saying that if a team has a better car, they should be permanently restricted. IIRC, it happened to Audi with their AWD and they didn't hang around long after.

Indeed. Certainly the BTCC has proven that equalizing performance is actually much more difficult than people imagine it to be, whether that is equalization in the practical sense or even just giving the appearance of parity.

Personally I think that, when left alone and not micro-managed, FWD and RWD provide a nice balance against each other already, and both have enough of their advantages and disadvantages to make the racing interesting.

[gttouring]

Even if AWD is a grand trouble maker in rule set just avoid it. Lol.
what I think is interesting is the falling and seemingly too expensive budgets unibody cars and FWD end up being. The DTC (touring car) has dropped that format and will now be DTC (thunder car or challenge) use tube frame RWD v8 camaro cup stuff? What the he'll? How is this ultimately cheaper than front wheel drive unibodies with a cage inside?
I just read on it this morn on TouringCar Times- maybe a discussion in The WTCC generaal boards maybe more appropriate for this.

[Speed-King]

Tubeframers are ridiculously cheap when you do it right...

Here's the sales brochure for the Camaro Cup car

And also take a look at Howe Racing's catalogue (where you can built a car a la carte)

Of course it's stone age tech, but you'll virtually never need an engine rebuilt and you fix crash damage with an angle grinder and a welder!

The Camaro Cup cars are already pretty nice, but if one wants to go all out with the cost saving, a tubeframe V8 car can probably be had for well under 50.000€s.... I actually seem to remember that the DNRT V8 cars cost somewhere around that, and almost half of that is the engine!

According to the Howe sales brochure, a fully optioned Camaro Cup car comes in somewhere around 80.000$, which is about 60.000€.

You only get very, very tired S2000 cars for that kind of coin... if you want to be anywhere near competitive you'll probably have to spend twice as much and engine rebuilts for the high-strung 2l NA units will really kill you. An LS1 run at 450bhp in contrast is pretty much bulletproof and intervals between rebuilts should be huge, perhaps not even necessarily every season if you are a cheapskate. (Professional teams might do it anyway, but I supposse you could get away with only doing it every other year.)

[gttouring]

thing is these are the best looking ones i think since the rocketsports Trans am jaguars

[andy97]

Back to the Eurocar idea. And nothing wrong with that, but in the UK we do seem to like our "Touring Cars" to be somewhat based a bit more on the road car architecture! Even if, given what goes in to a touring car these days, that is a bit of an illusion really.

[iceman-1987]

yes totally agree! each manufacture should be freee to decide if use front or rear wheel drive or AWD!

[NaBUru38]

The question is: who is interested in running 4WD touring cars? Audi, Subaru, Volvo and who else? Plus, the best place to show 4WD cars is rally, rallycross and rally raid, not circuit racing.

[kober]

What about Class 1 Touring Cars? Alfa and Opel proved that AWD works, can win races or even championships. On the other hand, both of them were outclassed by RWD Mercedes in '94 and '95.