Porsche 997 - Development Curve

[Spyderman]

We have had a very civil and interesting debate on another forum concerning the status of development of the Porsche 997 vis a vis the Ferrari 430 GT.
It was so interesting (to me) that I thought I’d start a debate here.

The question is whether Porsche is just lagging behind in the “development curve” in relation to the Ferrari, or whether Porsche got its figures wrong when designing the 997.

[fausto]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

We have had a very civil and interesting debate on another forum concerning the status of development of the Porsche 997 vis a vis the Ferrari 430 GT.
It was so interesting (to me) that I thought I’d start a debate here.

The question is whether Porsche is just lagging behind in the “development curve” in relation to the Ferrari, or whether Porsche got its figures wrong when designing the 997.

Maybe the only thing wrong is the engine position...

[SebringMG]

More to the point Ferrari is a year ahead - they have more data on the car than POrsche have so the Ferrari should still be ahead. Porsche may be slightly ahead on their particular curve but because Ferrari have a years extra work they still appear to be ahead !!

You would expect POrsche to have caught up by the end of the year i would think.

And yes the engine is in the wrong place

[gwyllion]

I think Porsche might shine at Le Mans, but on other tracks the Ferrari will stay ahead all because of superior weight distributions. I suspect the Porsche GT2 domination days are over. The only real solution would be to base their next GT2 on Cayman

[fausto]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I think Porsche might shine at Le Mans, but on other tracks the Ferrari will stay ahead all because of superior weight distributions. I suspect the Porsche GT2 domination days are over. The only real solution would be to base their next GT2 on Cayman

Finally!

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I think Porsche might shine at Le Mans, but on other tracks the Ferrari will stay ahead all because of superior weight distributions. I suspect the Porsche GT2 domination days are over. The only real solution would be to base their next GT2 on Cayman

The word on the street is that Porsche will not support the “racing development” of the Cayman as it would conflict with its 911 flagship policy.

The Altzen brothers have done some development of their own on the Cayman, and have a project to “squeeze” the Carrera GT V10 into their car.

http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl=...006-18,GGGL:en

Warning: Car is also excellent to look at!

[Sean Edwards]

The Porsche is nice to drive.

Well most of you think that Ferrari have had a year head start, but that is not true. Porsche did not race their 997 last year (except the Spa 24 hours), but they did a hell of alot of testing.

Porsche will not like being beat and will soon correct this problem and bring out an updated kit for the 997 flaws. The ferrari is very good at fast corners and on the brakes.

I hope that we get on the pace of the Ferrari soon, because I want to beat those Italian buckets

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Sean Edwards

The Porsche is nice to drive.

Well most of you think that Ferrari have had a year head start, but that is not true. Porsche did not race their 997 last year (except the Spa 24 hours), but they did a hell of alot of testing.

Porsche will not like being beat and will soon correct this problem and bring out an updated kit for the 997 flaws. The ferrari is very good at fast corners and on the brakes.

I hope that we get on the pace of the Ferrari soon, because I want to beat those Italian buckets

Hi Sean – You just the man I wanted to hear from.

As you can tell, I am a Porsche fanatic.
I can not begin to tell you guys how much it pains me to see the 997 being so uncompetitive (more so in the ALMS).
I have grown up always having a Porsche in the household (more than 47 years) and most of my life it has been a 911 (in one form or the other).
I'm not trying to be negative, but it this has not been an auspicious start, and it's certainly not what we (I) expect from Porsche.
Is 1 second just too much of a gain to expect from development in the near future?
Is not the problem also that the 6 cylinder engine is nearing the upper most regions of its full potential. (in its atmospheric state)?
As for the new kit, I know you can’t say too much about it, but when are you expecting to get it?
Please report back on testing (if you can)

Porsche and their drivers are always in my thoughts! - Go For It!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Sean Edwards

Well most of you think that Ferrari have had a year head start, but that is not true. Porsche did not race their 997 last year (except the Spa 24 hours), but they did a hell of alot of testing.

Ferrari did a similar amount of testing in 05' though.....

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

The word on the street is that Porsche will not support the “racing development” of the Cayman as it would conflict with its 911 flagship policy.

I am totally aware of Porsche policy. They also refused any collaboration on a race version of the Carrera GT.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am totally aware of Porsche policy. They also refused any collaboration on a race version of the Carrera GT.

WELL....EXCUSE ME!

[ThePenguin]

With the Porsche takeover of Volkswagon Group there hasn't been as much money for developing the 997 considering that the money that is availibe has also gone to develop the RS Spyder which will probably help them reach their goal of an LMP1 dominating car.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by ThePenguin

With the Porsche takeover of Volkswagon Group there hasn't been as much money for developing the 997 considering that the money that is availibe has also gone to develop the RS Spyder which will probably help them reach their goal of an LMP1 dominating car.

I am totally unaware of any takeover by Porsche on VAG. 30+ % is nowhere close to an absolute majority

The VAG stocks were mainly bought by cash reserve. I doubt this influenced Porsche Motorsport in any way.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am totally unaware of any takeover by Porsche on VAG. 30+ % is nowhere close to an absolute majority

Agreed, it is nowhere near an absolute majority, but they are the biggest shareholder.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The VAG stocks were mainly bought by cash reserve. I doubt this influenced Porsche Motorsport in any way.

Agreed!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I am totally unaware of any takeover by Porsche on VAG. 30+ % is nowhere close to an absolute majority

According to German market laws, that is considered a takeover. Keep in mind that the Piech family also has a block of shares, which gets them pretty close to an absolute majority.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

According to German market laws, that is considered a takeover. Keep in mind that the Piech family also has a block of shares, which gets them pretty close to an absolute majority.

Hi Foglhund - its not exactly like that.

German law forces a takeover bid by the shareholder if they purchase 30% (or more) of the shares. Porsche have made that bid (at very low prices per share as they were never interested in buying out VAG) and the bid has been rejected.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Hi Foglhund - its not exactly like that.

German law forces a takeover bid by the shareholder if they purchase 30% (or more) of the shares. Porsche have made that bid (at very low prices per share as they were never interested in buying out VAG) and the bid has been rejected.

Your right, thanks... too many meds today.. sorry.

[bil588]

"The reliability is good on the RSR," Bergmeister said. "We haven't had any issues so far. The last couple of years we always have had an advantage on straight-line speed. This is not the case now. But our car can handle quicker in the corners we think than the Ferrari. It won't be easy. What you need in a 24-hour race is luck."

- Jörg Bergmeister

http://www.americanlemans.com/News/Article.aspx?ID=3234

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by bil588

The last couple of years we always have had an advantage on straight-line speed. This is not the case now. But our car can handle quicker in the corners we think than the Ferrari.

Well, apparently not all corners. I think it was Sean Edwards that claimed that the Ferrari’s were very fast in the high speed corners.

But getting back to the straight line speed issue: This is the crux of the mater. The 6 cylinder has already been so refined over the years, that one wonders what quick fix (within the rules) Porsche can find to improve on power.
Apparently the maximum optimum displacement for the 6 cylinder is 3.8L, and an 8 cylinder alternative is out of the question.

Improving the aero is a possible solution, but it has been made more difficult due to the wider body and tires. If they go back to the “skinnier” tires and narrower body of the 996, they loose the 997 cornering abilities.

[bil588]

Originally Posted by ThePenguin

With the Porsche takeover of Volkswagon Group there hasn't been as much money for developing the 997 considering that the money that is availibe has also gone to develop the RS Spyder which will probably help them reach their goal of an LMP1 dominating car.

but Porsche is far more profitable right now than in the early 1990s, yet they made racecars of turbo'd I-4 968s, turbo'd 911s, RS here and there back then.

autoweek.com: June 1, 2005

Contrary to hints of a lightweight racing version of the new Boxster-based mid-engined Cayman coupe (AW, May 30), Porsche research and development officials in Weissach insist there is no club sport or stripped-for-racing Cayman in the works.

"The racing edge of Porsche is, and will remain, the 911," said chief engineer Wolfgang Durheimer. "No production car will supplant it anytime soon. There is no plan for a Cayman intended for racing at any level."

The 2006 Cayman S is powered by a new 3.4-liter version of Porsche's horizontally opposed six, generating 295 hp, or 15 more than the current Boxster S. The Cayman S will be the high-trim, top-output coupe variant. Another Cayman in development - a standard model with less equipment than that of the S - is likely to be powered by a 3.0-liter, 260-hp boxer six. That version may not go on sale for more than a year after the launch of the Cayman S.

Cayman S debuts at the Frankfurt motor show this fall and goes on sale in the United States by spring 2006.

[panoz.lmp1]

Originally Posted by ThePenguin

With the Porsche takeover of Volkswagon Group there hasn't been as much money for developing the 997 considering that the money that is availibe has also gone to develop the RS Spyder which will probably help them reach their goal of an LMP1 dominating car.

Be sure that money isn´t the problem of Porsche.

[gwyllion]

Back on topic.

Looking at the pace of Risi in ALMS, I would be amased if Porsche can challenge Ferrari by just releasing an update.

It is my impression that the fundamental design choices Porsche made (namely higher weight for wider tires) and of course bad position of the engine (inherent to the 911) don't for for the ALMS circuits.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Back on topic.

Looking at the pace of Risi in ALMS, I would be amased if Porsche can challenge Ferrari by just releasing an update.

It is my impression that the fundamental design choices Porsche made (namely higher weight for wider tires) and of course bad position of the engine (inherent to the 911) don't for for the ALMS circuits.

They need to get more torque out of the engine to compensate for the extra weight and larger circumference tires w/ larger contact patch. Maybe just a rod length change(and head?), if it will fit without major case work.??

L.P.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Back on topic.

Looking at the pace of Risi in ALMS, I would be amased if Porsche can challenge Ferrari by just releasing an update.

It is my impression that the fundamental design choices Porsche made (namely higher weight for wider tires) and of course bad position of the engine (inherent to the 911) don't for for the ALMS circuits.

gwyllion, you and I don't agree on much, but I think that you may have a point.
What I find strange is that Porsche seems not to have done the math (as thoroughly as they should have) before opting for that design. They obviously underestimated the Ferrari’s potential, and that is very unlike Porsche.

As for the rear engine format, besides the obvious disadvantages, it is also limiting in that it does not allow for an 8 cylinder engine to be placed there.



I am however, interested to see what solution they come up with....and they will. They are Porsche... and there is no substitute.

[The Badger]

Le mans is Porsche's stomping ground and I would be very surprised to see their 997 beaten there .

Im also a little biased towards Porsche ..... always cheer for them . But at the end of the day , a great battle is what counts the most .

Im sure they have pulled out all the stops for LM and have a few weapons lined up for the race ..... one being called Norbert Singer !!!

Has anyone found a betting shop at Le Mans , ive always wanted to have a flutter on the race ?