Brabham BT15

[Chris Townsend]

I wondered if there are observers and owners out there who can add to this on early F3 Brabhams

F3.1.65, not known 65, 1966 Natalie Goodwin

F3.2.65 Bill Moss for Andrew Fletcher, then?

F3.3.65 Team Promecom for Jim Sullivan, then?

F3.4.65 not known

F3.5.65 Goodwin Racing, 1965

F3.6.65 Goodwin Racing

F3.7.65 Goodwin Racing

F3.8.65 Roy Pike, 1966-67 Ken Costello

F3.9.65 Jurg Dubler, 1966 Manfred Mohr

F3.10.65 David Cole, then?

F3.11.65 Ralph Caumont [was he an entrant rather than a racer?]

F3.12.65 Victor Auschlander

F3.13.65 not known

F3.14.65 not known

F3.15.65 Tony Huggett and kept 1966

F3.16.65 Martinelli Sonvico in Italy, various drivers

F3.17.65 Francesco Ghezzi, then 1966 Jurg Dubler

F3.18.65 Not known before 1969 when used by Tom Watson in FC in USA. Car destroyed in accident by Al Essig in 1972. This plate recently advertised on ebay as a means of "authenticating" your restored BT15...

F3.19.65 First known in 1968 when for sale by Ian Raby's firm, converted to FF. Imported to Canada as FF, and now restored to F3 there

F3.20.65 Tony Dean, 1966 to Barrie Maskell then 1969 Keith Wright and 1970 Alan Joy [Monoposto]

F3.21.65 not known

F3.22.65 not known

F3.23.65 not known

F3.24.65 not known

F3.25.65 DAF team to Keith St John then Ken Shepherd, Jimmy Johnstone, Chris Tipping and Doc Willoughby

F3.26.65 Chris Lambert to Lamplough as hire car 1967

was 26 all?

Chris

[allenbrown]

Wow! Those books useful then, huh?

According to the Mike Lawrence book, there were exactly 26 BT15s in 1965 but unfortunately another 32 in 1966. And of course there were the 21 BT16As built for F3 in 1965 and the 32 BT18As built in 1966 for F3. I'd always assumed the story of Brabham in F3 was impossible but clearly I underestimated you!

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

I fancy that the 32 B15s built in 1966 and the 32 B18s for F3 built in 1966 are more than a coincidence. More like Brabham built 32 F3 cars in 1966...
[Otherwise, where did they get the extra capacity from?]

Chris

[Bryan Miller]

My factory ? production sheets list the following,

1965 , BT15 , F3 , 58 off .
1965 , BT16 , F2 , 12 off.
1965 , BT16A , F3 , 21 off.
1966 , BT18 , F2 , 6 off.
1966 , BT18A , F3 , 32 off.
1966 , BT18B , F.L. , 8 off.

I will dig up my notes overnight , but we have at least 3 and a 1/2 here.
A real problem with these will be the cars sent back to the works and updated to long rear upright BT18 spec. and forever after being called a BT18.

Did the ''T'' fall off your keyboard Chris.?????????

Bryan.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Bryan Miller

Did the ''T'' fall off your keyboard Chris.?????????

He's got a head full of Chevrons!

[allenbrown]

I looked up the earliest version I have of the Brabham production list - dated 13 Sep 1967 - and it has the 32 1966 BT15s and 32 BT18As. Total Brabham production in 1966 was 86, only 15 higher than 1965 and just nine higher than 1967. Total F3 production was 47 in 1965 and 48 in 1967 so the 64 in 1966 is just as likely as 32 would be. Given the date that document was produced, it's hard to believe they'd have made a mistake of that magnitude. Also, Autosport's F3 review (20 Jan 1967 p91) says Brabham "sold some 32 genuine F3 cars, and another 32 F2 cars equipped for F3 engines".

However, a cursory look through 1966 F3 F1R data does make me wonder where all those BT15s went.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Brian

According to this Autospot review, the BT18 also had 2.25 inches more space in the engine compartment so an original BT15 should still be recognisable from that.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Did Brabham perhaps sell a consignment of BT15s to South America or somewhere similar for a series in 1966?
[I'm trying urgently to legitimate these 32 frames I've got in the shed...]

Chris

[zucca]

F3.16.65 Martinelli Sonvico in Italy, various drivers

Cars from Martinelli & Sonvico in Lugano Switzerland

I found two cars ex Martinelli & Sonvico, anyway there were four cars on the end of this Team. Not clear about the type of Brabham cars.

Brabham BT16 – F3-16-65 Martineli&Sonvico Racing Team Lugano CH, Adriano Ribolzi (Hobby) Lugano CH, Garage Storelli Ascona CH and now Angelo Delea Ascona CH

Brabham BT16 – F2-02-65 Roy Winkelmann (Jochen Rindt), Martinelli&Sonvico (Silvio Moser) Lugano CH, Hans Bütsch CH, Hans Obrist CH and now Konrad (Conny) Lutziger Rudolfstetten CH

For the other cars I have found different notices, one time BT10, different times BT15 as F3 and BT16 F3, the last one probably F2 car used also as F3. 1965 was also one or two BT16 F2 on for Silvio Moser used also as F3.

The Brabham BT06 –17-63 Junior car, was bought from Brabham by Rico Steinemann for the Charles Voegele Team CH as ex. Denis Hulme Car (race or spare), Silvio Moser Lugano CH, next not sure the order Fritz Heini CH, Hans Obrist CH, Heinz Schulthess CH, Marcel Schaub Lausen CH and now Chris Drake GB

[Bryan Miller]

F3-3-65,

Early not known by me , however by the late 1960's converted to F.Ford , car is in Australia and has been for at least 20 or more years , owned at present by American Jo Bosworth , who resides some of the time in Aust. maybe all the time now , Jo has owned the car since , as far as I know the early 1970's , car is still in converted F.Ford spec. and apparently gets very little use , perhaps Jo converted the car in the USA , just plain don't have any more info.

BT 15 , F3-18-65 bits , subject of the weird Ebay auction is now owned by Steve Wood in Sydney.

BT15 , F3-16-65 , ex according to Ted Walker , Tony Dean in 1965 and 1966 , thence Barry Maskell 1967 , then Keith Wright 1969 , Alan Joy 1970 , 1971-1974 Graham Bowskill , 1975 Mike Whately fitted with March bodywork and ran in the F4 c'ship in U.K. 1976-79 unknown then to Peter Dorricott in U.K. rebuilt with BT21 bodywork , 1984 Simon Hadfield / Stuart Rolt , 1985 sold to Australian Max Lane retained till 1997 , sold to the late Nereo Dizane , retained in Nereo's estate and used on occaisions by Nereo's daughter , in correct 1.0 litre MAE spec.

3 more BT15s tomorrow.

Bryan.

[allenbrown]

F3-11-65 bought from Robin Dunbar (Ireland) in 1983 by Denis Lupton and retained 2006.

[allenbrown]

I've been talking to Ted about this puzzle of the missing 32 BT15s. Whilst he agrees that Brabham say they produced 58 BT15s, it looks like someone has made a mistake. Ted has notes on 26 BT15s in 1965 (i.e. up to F3-27-65 missing F3-13-65) but then just another six in 1966 (up to F3-33-65). We think the 26 total at the end of 1965 has been accidentally added to the 32 total at the end of 1966 to give a total of 58 instead of a total of 32.

Oddly, Ted's numbers for the extra six BT15s go F3-28-66, F3-29-66 up to F3-33-66. However, as all the BT18As appear to have F2 prefices, there wouldn't have been any clash.

So it looks like Chris is right and Brabham production for 1966 has always been significantly overstated. It's amazing if that's true and yet it's never been picked up before.

Allen

[allenbrown]

More from the very helpful Mr Lupton:

BT15 F3-3-65 Jim Sullivan then to Geoff Oliver, I think then to Fred Opert, to Joe Bosworth?

BT15 F3-22-65 First owner Trevor Blokdyk

BT15 F3-33-65 Winfield Racing Mike Knight

This appearance of F3-33-65 in Denis's notes is particularly interesting.

Denis also mentioned that 'the English monthly mag "Motor Racing" (December 1965 p500) shows a photo of 4 BT15's being tested and delivered to Fangio,
to be sent to Argentina, with an order being placed for 4 more, which were subsequently delivered'. Denis believes the higher number of 58 BT15s is correct and quotes George Thornton's book as giving the higher number.

George Thornton, for those of you new to the name, kept detailed records of every car leaving MRD. I have seen some of his records but the fate of this book following his death some years ago is a mystery.

Allen

[Alan Brown]

This car was raced in the Peter Hanson Trophy at Brands Hatch in June by Max Blees. He said that it had gone from Switzerland to USA.

The other BT15 in the race was Peter Williams' which carries a "modern" plate BT15-7-65.

Alan Brown

[Andy Clegg]

Originally Posted by Alan Brown

This car was raced in the Peter Hanson Trophy at Brands Hatch in June by Max Blees. He said that it had gone from Switzerland to USA.

The other BT15 in the race was Peter Williams' which carries a "modern" plate BT15-7-65.

Alan Brown

This photo is of Peter Williams at Donington Park in 2002

[Andy Clegg]

This photo is of James Long Brabham BT15 (997cc 1965) again at Donington Park in 2002

[pantah]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

More from the very helpful Mr Lupton:

BT15 F3-3-65 Jim Sullivan then to Geoff Oliver, I think then to Fred Opert, to Joe Bosworth?

BT15 F3-22-65 First owner Trevor Blokdyk

BT15 F3-33-65 Winfield Racing Mike Knight

This appearance of F3-33-65 in Denis's notes is particularly interesting.

Denis also mentioned that 'the English monthly mag "Motor Racing" (December 1965 p500) shows a photo of 4 BT15's being tested and delivered to Fangio,
to be sent to Argentina, with an order being placed for 4 more, which were subsequently delivered'. Denis believes the higher number of 58 BT15s is correct and quotes George Thornton's book as giving the higher number.

George Thornton, for those of you new to the name, kept detailed records of every car leaving MRD. I have seen some of his records but the fate of this book following his death some years ago is a mystery.

Allen

I found this....... in relation to Fangio and BT15's

[Robert_R]

Sorry for dropping in slightly off-topic, but Chris mentioned the "F1R" in one of his posts. What is it - a kind of registry or a motorsport magazine?

I have just recently purchased a BT15 (F3-21-65, AM 50 J). Since I don't have any early history, I would of course be very interested what "F1R" has to tell about my car.

Robert

[Chris Townsend]

Robert

F1R is shorthand for Formula One Register, an excellent association of enthusiasts that has, since the 1960s, been recording results and observing car details at events well beyond F1. Most of its publications are out of print, though a fair number of us on this forum have copies of some, and use these volumes to support and extend our own observations.

If F1R has faults it is that sometimes the proof reading in their volumes is not all it should be [so some names and possibly chassis numbers are suspect] and there is in particular a tendency in the 1970s to extrapolate, so that if a chassis number is recorded against a particular driver at one race that stays with him until another car is recorded.

None of the F1R books on F3 in the mid 60s that I'm using has any mention of your chassis number, though there are a number of BT15s that appear without number. Ted Walker, acknowledged expert on all things Brabham, may be able to offer some help, or ex Brabham employee Denis Lupton.

At the moment there are nine BT15s from 1965 that I can't associate to specific owners/drivers
There are ten drivers I can't associate to cars in 1965
Manfred Mohr [though I think this may be him renting Dubler's car]
Walter Habbeger
Jorgen Ellekaer
Egert Haglund
Picko Troberg
Patrick Dal Bo
Rollo Feilding
Mike Loasby
Cliff Haworth
Martin Slater

[John could you move this to BT15 at an appropriate time, and I think it's probably time to put BT16 into the chassis history archive]

Chris

[allenbrown]

F1R is the Formula 1 Register who published a series of books from the mid-1970s covering Formula 1, Formula 2, Formula 3, Formula Junior (I think) and even Formula 5000. Their work is excellent and groundbreaking but suffers a couple of weaknesses: that sources for their knowledge are not shown and that car identification is sometimes extrapolated from a single sighting to a whole season.

Because of these issues, Wolfgang Klopfer, Chris Townsend and I reworked Formula 5000 completely from original sources. I had already done the 1966-1985 period of F1 completely independently and Chris has now started to do F2 from original sources as well.

We do use F1R sources for some things, notably recently the chassis numbers they give in their F3 books as these are noted only for certain races, making us confident that they were contemporary observations.

Allen

PS Chris has beaten me to it!

[Robert_R]

Hi Allen and Chris,

thanks for explaining the meaning of F1R to me! And also for checking the unknown BT15s in the F1 Register.

My new car has spent most (or all?) of its life in Sweden. Some of the driver's names which you listed sound very Swedish, so one of them might have been the first owner of F3-21-65. Picko Troberg is still active as a team boss, but he doesn't seem to remember anything of those old days. I have been in contact with Jöran Hedberg, who compiled a comprehensive list of F3 results from Scandinavia, but the data from the sixties is mostly lacking chassis numbers.

Unfortunately the previous ownerhip list in the FIA papers starts only in 1969:

1969-70: Bo Elvang
1970-71: Ove Jacobsson
1971-74: Antoni Chlapowski
1974-94: Bengt Ljungberg
1994-06: Christer Lofthammar

I would really love to find out about the years from 1965-69. The seller told me that in those years Frank Williams used to bring over cars to Sweden, raced them for a few events and then sold them to local drivers. So their might be a slight chance that my car was one of those... but this is only guessing.

Regards, Robert

[allenbrown]

Denis has reminded me () that he sent me a spec sheet on these cars earlier this year. The main differences are:

BT16 - SCA, Hewland Mk 7, 1300 series driveshafts, 18 gallons held in two side tanks

BT15 - MAE (or Holbay R65), Hewland Mk 6, 1100 series driveshafts, 7 gallon seat tank

BT14 - twin cam, Hewland Mk IV (optional Mk 5), 1300 series driveshafts, 7 gallon seat tank

Wheels and chassis dimensions are the same. Simon has volunteered (I think that's the right word!) to help me recognise the minor chasis differences around the rear but he's confident that the frames had to be made slightly differently by AM.

These details are also on the other two relevant threads.

Allen

[Denis Lupton]

In reference to the number of Repco Brabham car's produced in 1965,
Jack's article in Motor Racing June 1965,p242 say's--
So far this year we have delivered 35 single seater's to customer's.
Unfortunately,we are being held up for engines,otherwise we could be pushing along much faster.The supply of some other components is also difficult. and Ron Tauranac spends half of his days on the phone trying to urge deliveries.--
Jack would probably have written this in May, for the June issue of the magazine,so this article gives an indication of the number's of cars involved
also it specifically say's 'to customer's' so work's car's should be added to
these figures.
Denis

[Denis Lupton]

This post should have been prior to the previous post,but better late than never. In the January 1965 issue of Motor Racing, Jack writes,----
The only embarrassment we have at the moment is that we have orders for
15 F2 cars, and we are going to be working at full stretch to make them all.
On top of this we've got about the same number of F3 cars on order,so with all this and our GP machines,we are beginning to look tight around the seam's. Our F3 sar's for 1965 has basically the same chassis as the F2, and
there is now a lot more interchangeability between the two. This has ,I'm
afraid, made the F3 a little bit more expensive,but our approach is that if you want to win races in F3 you have to provide the best. We are not
really interested in the cheap, off the shelf,rear of the field banger; our aim is to build car's which win races.---
This gives an insight into the Brabham philosophy,also the BT15--BT16
relationship.
Denis

[edholly]

Late last month this query was posted by Alan Brown

Other hill climbing BT15s include the supercharged 1100 cc versions of Doc R A Willoughby and Jimmy Johnstone (later to Chris Dowson) - I assume these were different cars. Does anyone know their identities?

Yes they are one in the same and the identity is F3-25-65

This car started life as the Radio London car driven primarily by Keith St John, but also by Tony Lanfranchi. I am not entirely sure who owned it at this time, but suspect that it was Ken Sheppard of Customised Sportscars, Shenley. The car did 11 meetings in 65, 14 in 66 and 2 in 67. After Keith started to race a BT18, the car was driven a twice by his fiancee, Liane Engeman and lastly by Sheppard, (these are included in above). I think I worked it out, the car had 15 top 6 finishes in its first 23 events.

It was sold by David Hepworth Racing as a roller to Jim Johnstone Oct 67. Jim still had the original receipt for this transaction, and has given me a copy of it. Jim then fitted the supercharged 1100cc Ford engine and Mk5 Hewland from his Lotus 18 to the car. The gearbox is still in it today. Jim then used the car 15 times between March and September 1968 for 7 class wins and 8 top ten finishes. It then went to Chris Tipping who used it briefly on the track with a Ford twin-cam in 1969 before selling it to Roger "Doc" Willoughby back in supercharged 1100cc form.

Roger competed with it 1970 through 73 when it was sold to 3 mates, Chris Dowson, David Lee and Keith Holbrow. In 1976 it was sold to Pat Keogh who has a nasty accident with it at Prescott and the car was badly damaged against a tree and Pat receiving critical injuries. The wreck passed to Charles Adrian's hands and was patched up and a pushrod crossflow installed. In 1984 it was bought by David Hill and brought to Australia. In the early 1990s David obtained an MAE for it and got an Historic logbook, and I purchased it in this form in 2003, and immediately commenced a full rebuild.

I drove the car 3 times as an MAE F3 screamer, but after doing research into the car, and finding it ran with a twin-cam, I decided to put it to this form. It has now had around 6 meetings in its 1969 Chris Tipping form, and the car is a joy to drive.

Ed Holly