[DTM] How do you like the DTM ???

[Helmpflicht]

Hello !!!

The German Touring Car Masters (in Germany called DTM) is an important Championship in Germany. And the Administration of the DTM, the "ITR" says it is the greatest championship near by the F1.

But just two Manufactures, boring Races and not many Spectators at the Races outside of Germany don´t confirm the ITR.

What do you think about the DTM. Is it an important Championship ???
Is it good as the "good old days" form 1984 to 1996 ???
Is it spectacular like the F1 ???

[helterskelter]

The World Touring Car Championship is much more spectacular and has 4 manufacturers, plus quite a few indies. I like it much more.

[brands hatch]

Having seen the DTM this year and last year at brands hatch, i believe that the series could be improved. Compared to series like the WTCC there is very little "action" and very little overtaking. I agree with helterskelter...with more manufactures brings more variety, plus the racing is much closer

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht

Is it spectacular like the F1 ???

Is F1 spectacular?

If your definition of 'greatest' is an over-hyped procession of cars too reliant on aero, which what F1 has become, then DTM is probably a very close second.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Is F1 spectacular?

If your definition of 'greatest' is an over-hyped procession of cars too reliant on aero, which what F1 has become, then DTM is probably a very close second.

Well, arguably F1 of 2009 has been a big improvement. A lot less predictable than the last 1-2 decades. DTM unfortunately is still comparable to F1 199x-2008. Should be made back into touring cars, instead of current prototypes, just like HaRdCoRe-WeZ sais.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Well, arguably F1 of 2009 has been a big improvement. A lot less predictable than the last 1-2 decades. DTM unfortunately is still comparable to F1 199x-2008. Should be made back into touring cars, instead of current prototypes, just like HaRdCoRe-WeZ sais.

You're right, F1 has been a little better this year but it still has a long way to go. There's a great quote posted to the F1 forum recently, allegedly from Flavio Briatore - "Formula one is not just about sport and technology. What attracts people is the glamour, the lifestyle, the drama.......". That same quote could equally apply to DTM.

DTM is all about the show - big, noisy cars; sparks; exhaust flames; bright colours; big name drivers; loud rock music; grid girls; etc. The problem for me is that once you strip away all that glitz and get on track the actual racing doesn't live up to the hype.

[juicy sushi]

I think DTM would be a lot better under GT4 rules. You could require 4 doors, or a minimum amount of interior space to keep things to "touring cars", I suppose. I just think the racing would be a lot better, and there would be a lot more competitive teams. All the current manufacturers, plus many more, could enter. You could have a BMW M3 / Mercedes C63 / Audi RS4 or RS5 / Ford Mustang / Chevy Camaro battle royale, with some nice cars which weren't FWD, had plenty of power, and didn't fall apart when touching...

[Speed-King]

GT4 would never fly in Germany.... the masses here demand big wings and widebodies.

[Robbe]

The cars in DTM may look good and sound spectacular, but on track there's much less going on than in WTCC. The DTM-cars still fall to pieces when they are just coming close to each other...
Politics also plays a big role, but that's in any major series.

I also think the teams and drivers in DTM are very unspectacular. There is Abt and HWA that can win races, there are Mücke, Persson, Rosberg and Phoenix in the middle of the field, definately #2 teams compared to Abt and HWA, and there is the Kolles-paydriverteam.
WTCC has the works teams, but also teams like Sunred, Wiechers, Engstler and Proteam fighting very hard against each other and also against the other works teams.
As for the drivers, in DTM there is Mattias Ekström who has a real personality, and Tom Kristensen who has the reputation of his Le Mans victories. The other drivers are rather boring, exchangeable or just bad (Schumacher, Lauda, Seidlitz). They also have 2 cars for the girls which is ridiculous IMO, as they have proven not to be really talented.

The WTCC has many drivers that are proven champions (Y Muller, Priaulx, Menu, Rydell, Tarquini, Larini, Thompson) or very special by the way they drive and behave (Farfus, J Müller, Coronel, sometimes D'Aste). The DTM had such drivers in the past when Alzen, Abt, Schneider, Reuter were driving - but now I can only see Ekström. Scheider and Paffett have the championships but they were not really spectacular the way they drive.

[werner]

Originally Posted by Robbe

I also think the teams and drivers in DTM are very unspectacular. There is Abt and HWA that can win races, there are Mücke, Persson, Rosberg and Phoenix in the middle of the field, definately #2 teams compared to Abt and HWA, and there is the Kolles-paydriverteam.
WTCC has the works teams, but also teams like Sunred, Wiechers, Engstler and Proteam fighting very hard against each other and also against the other works teams.

You are joking, aren't you? I am waiting all year to see a private BMW fight the works BMW's and in the Seat-camp it is exactly the same, with or without the extra indypoints for overall points.

[Robbe]

Originally Posted by werner

You are joking, aren't you? I am waiting all year to see a private BMW fight the works BMW's and in the Seat-camp it is exactly the same, with or without the extra indypoints for overall points.

You are right with this (and it's a real shame they don't fight the works teams), but this wasn't what I meant to say

In WTCC, let's say, Wiechers fights hard against Proteam (although they are also BMW), and Wiechers fights hard against SEAT Sport.
In DTM, Phoenix and Rosberg are both Audi, so they don't fight... and most of the time when a Phoenix car fights against a HWA Mercedes, it is due to the pit stop strategies.
I have to say this is a lot better this year though, maybe because Jarvis and Green are closer to the pace of the 09' cars drivers.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht

Hello !!!

Welcome on Ten-Tenths

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht

What do you think about the DTM. Is it an important Championship ???

Because of the big involvement of Mercedes and Audi it's still an important championship. The cars look spectacular but unfortunately the racing is boring. I think if they remove most of the wings and other aerodynamic devices the racing would be much better.

Thanks to the strong marketing the DTM has the potential to become a very successfull Euro-German series. Unfortunately ITR (= currently Mercedes and Audi) make the wrong decisions. They should copy many things from NASCAR.

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht

Is it good as the "good old days" form 1984 to 1996 ???

Don't know much about the 80's (have only seen some short videos; from what I have seen I liked it) but the 90's were great (the cars and in my memory the races too).

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht

Is it spectacular like the F1 ???

F1 and DTM are both boring.
In my opinion the WTCC, TC2000 and especially the BTCC are the best touring car series in the world.


Helmpflicht what do you think about DTM and other series like WTCC?

[Valenok]

Another thread about subject.

Originally Posted by FIRE

I think if they remove most of the wings and other aerodynamic devices the racing would be much better.

Also they need to be chiper - maybe little havier and more powerful, like Brasilian Stock-cars.

[Helmpflicht]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Helmpflicht what do you think about DTM and other series like WTCC?

I was a big Fan of the DTM. But Opel was gone and the DTM-Races got more and more boring, i´m not a big Fan at the moment. The DTM needs "real Cars" and not these kind of "plastic Cars" what you can see there.

I love the BTCC and the WTCC. I´ve heard good Things about the STCC and AussieV8. That´s "real Racing". Close Battles, Many overtaking Manoeuvres and big Starting Grids.

I think the BTCC is the best Touring-Car-Series in the World. Because they have great Racing-Tracks, too (Snetterton, Oulton Park or Knockhill).

[Helmpflicht]

Sorry for the double-Post, but i can´t edit my own Post ?!?


I´ve put this Poll in other international Racing-Forums and this are the results after 4 days (24.09.2009):

"Great Series"
29 People (11,24 %)

"Good, but could be better"
101 People (39,15 %)

"Just boring"
112 People (43,41 %)

"I don´t know the DTM"
16 People (6,2 %)


The most People think that the DTM is "boring". But also many people think the DTM has the potential to be a great Racing Series, like in the 90ies.

There are 258 Voters at the Polls and I´m think it´s representative for a Poll of a normal Motorsport-Fan. But it would be not bad, if some more People could take their choice at my poll.

[Dead-Eye]

The only series where I have actually fallen asleep several times during races and therefore stopped watching.

[HaRdCoRe-WeZ]

Same here. I went to several races of the "new" DTM, but only in the early years it was exciting. This had to do with the change from coupe's to sedans and some good drivers pulling out i think. So the last 3 years i have skipped the races at Zandvoort, maybe i'll check it out next year, maybe...

And i'm really, REALLY glad i've seen the DTM at Zolder in the 90's. The sound of the Audi's, M3's, EVO 2's, 155's, Calibra's and the C-Class can never be matched by the "new" DTM. Bring back the old days with great racing cars and great racing drivers!

[BertMk2]

I've been to several DTM meetings and I have to say I still love the sight and sound of those cars. The racing itself may not be as frenetic as the BTCC but the cars are far superior. Maybe they need to lose some of the aero so they can follow each other a bit better but the cars should still be faster, louder and more radical looking than S2000. What they really need is more variety - A4 vs C-Class is all very well but add a couple more manufacturers in and it'd be a lot better.

As for the drivers - there's still a good mix in there (although I agree that Legge and Stoddart are purely cynical marketing drives rather than based on talent): Audi have their sportscar drivers plus Ekstrom, Tomczyk and Scheider, Mercedes have their drivers that have come up through the junior formulae but can't be accommodated in F1 (and their F1 reject). Kolles runs the Audi creche

Having been to BTCC, WTCC and DTM meets at Brands Hatch this year it's hard to pick a favourite. Each championship has its own strong points but if I had to choose just one to go and see next year - it'd be the DTM. BTCC and WTCC are good but you can see racing equally good (and cleaner) at club level, the DTM is just that bit more spectacular.

[werner]

Originally Posted by Helmpflicht

not many Spectators at the Races outside of Germany

It is not that bad imo. At Brands there were not to many, so I've heard, but in Spain there were 30.000, and in Zandvoort 38.000 (despite the vey bad weatherforecast on the morning of the races. I actually took my raincoat with me, but I came home totally sunburnt) In Albers' DTM-days, more than 60.000 people came to watch the races in Zandvoort. It is a shame that Alesi does not drive anymore with the new race in France, but I am very keen to see that race.

[helgi]

Oh,yes. Real champions ride WTCC stallions - it's a fact of course,and you should be a Martian or lunatic if you are not agree.
I've watch at You-tube start at Oschersleben and didn't fall asleep. Instead I've fall off a chair laughing watching those old-days-champions-pensioners smashing,sliding,slashing and cracking their tin-cans.
In DTM only one car was spinning in that first corner once,not say semi-professional GTs taking that turn more carefuly than all WTCC champions taken together.
DTM is boring - maybe. Independants fight for high places in WTCC? Where have you seen that? Green won, Jarvis took pole. And the weather was perfect,and all DTM champions didn't crash or carry ton-ballast that days. I can't imagine Haug begging like a little boy to get off some kg only to hot up the last rounds. Maybe Dijon is going to be boring,but it's racing. No politics. And not a 'Big brother' to measure its quantity in spectators. Cheers,REAL FANs!

[FIRE]

No politics in DTM?

[Last2LiftOff]

Since; it's mindless and diversionary, relax a little or, not sure where any of these drivers would be without it, isn't up there, I went with Good, but could be better.

This thread kind of reminds me of the Mrs. when you're trying to watch football.

[mark_l]

It needs another manufacturer to generate more interest, at the moment it is just an Audi and Mercedes marketing benefit.

I preferred the old DTM when racing was close and the cars didn't fall to bit with the slightest touch, I am also getting fed up with the poor driving standards and the team orders.

Lets not forget it is a german national series that likes to visit overseas, I cannot see the BTCC being such a success if it visited Germany.

[flor]

The looks of the cars are ok and the sound is quite nice, but the racing itself is so unbelievably dull and boring...

[andy97]

Needs more manufacturers and simpler cars, a bit closer in relation to the road cars - very powerful but far, far less aero.