Dutch Supercar Challenge question

[helgi]

Hallo! I've searched the forum and couldn't find a thread about this championship (the freshest is a 2012 one).

So, the question. Once this championship had a huge grid full of different machinery: lots of so called silhouettes from Belgium (still searching info about them and French Supertouring ones), some GT cars and so on.

Today it looks like a second hand GT3 series with some spec proto classes.

What's going on with the class of so called silhouettes? Is it more affordable to get and maintain a GT3 car rather then this "silhouette"?

And the size of the grid. Racing is not popular anymore?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by helgi

Hallo! I've searched the forum and couldn't find a thread about this championship (the freshest is a 2012 one).

So, the question. Once this championship had a huge grid full of different machinery: lots of so called silhouettes from Belgium (still searching info about them and French Supertouring ones), some GT cars and so on.

Today it looks like a second hand GT3 series with some spec proto classes.

What's going on with the class of so called silhouettes? Is it more affordable to get and maintain a GT3 car rather then this "silhouette"?

And the size of the grid. Racing is not popular anymore?

As someone who followed the series in some detail, I don't think silhouettes were ever the main focus, at least in the top class. That was more a thing in the Belgian BTCS series.

Supercar Challenge always had an eclectic mix of second hand cars from other series. In the early years that meant 2000s DTM and GT2s, later on you'd even have some bonafide GT1 Vettes, etc.

I think that explains pretty much why it - along with what was once the Divinol Cup in Germany has become just another GT3 series:When everyone else is either GT3s or a single-make cup, there simply aren't any more exotic second hand cars available. And let's face it: From an owner/driver perspective it really makes some sense as GT3s are a lot more reliable (and spare parts are a lot easier to get) than - say - a homebrew Turbo-Porsche or a Marcos. That is if you can afford it...

On this website, you can see some galleries from the series and also Divinol Cup's/DMV Challenge's golden age: https://www.auto-rennsport.de/galerie_a.htm

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

On this website, you can see some galleries from the series and also Divinol Cup's/DMV Challenge's golden age: https://www.auto-rennsport.de/galerie_a.htm

Wow! Some of the cars are true garage masterpieces. That's what I'm talking about. Are there any of this kind in any championship to watch at? That Koppehel BMW is very interesting. Isn't it possible to held a championship for these machinery like Argentinian Prototypes?

In fact, that was the question. If I understand correctly, a garage DIY is more expensive to exploit and for maintenance than a dull GT3 stuff? That's why almost nobody tries to build or race something mind blowing?

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by helgi

In fact, that was the question. If I understand correctly, a garage DIY is more expensive to exploit and for maintenance than a dull GT3 stuff? That's why almost nobody tries to build or race something mind blowing?

In general yes.

[Speed-King]

I don't think GT3 or GT4 is necessarily cheaper to run, but you are more likely to be running at all since
- it's easier to get spares
- the cars are designed for customer racing
- the cars are factory developed and therefore more reliable
- the cars are designed with amateur drivers in mind
- etc.

I know a story of a gentleman driver racing an uncorked Porsche 993 GT2 in Divinol Cup back in 2005 or so and while he wasn't slow as far as gentleman drivers go, he'd hardly finish any races because the car was so powerful that it would throw out driveshafts if you weren't careful enough when accelerating. And that is when the car was even running and the mechanics weren't chasing down some other problems.

It takes a special person to pick that experience (and spend big €€€) over a refined and relatively tame GT3. And so I think those that have the money go GT3-racing. And those that don't don't see a point in racing against the GT3s/GT4s/Cup-cars with a homebuilt since it's no longer like 20 years ago when you could have a slower car, but still have a good chance to get a win or a podium by sheer luck or attrition.

[v8supes]

You just have to look at the CTR Developments Porsche that runs in GT Cup some times. When it runs its fantastic but most weekends it doesn't make it to the actual races.https://s3.amazonaws.com/excellence/...jpg?1698257195

[FIRE]

These silhouettes and other exotic cars are 10 tot 20 years old now it's logical they are gone. Hopefully we will see the Marcos' in the historic racing scene.

[NaBUru38]

If you want to see exotic sports cars from the 2000s, you may look for some historic racing series, like the Endurance Racing Legends by Peter Auto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HxVWYAidL4

[helgi]

So, the question then has transformed a bit. Why have I asked? I've read about BTCS (I suppose) Volvo S60 chassis story - and the car end up racing in Supercar Challenge. In 2012 or 2013. And since then the whole "silhouette" theme became not that popular at all in racing. So, it looks like it's just about exploitation.
But. There're still some very interesting silhouette-like cars in European hill climb racing. Why is this type still popular there but not on, well, usual circuits for racing? The same goes to CN prototypes. Why is it possible to have new cars and even brands (Lobart, Revolta) in hill climbs but not in circuit racing? It's at garage club level I suppose. Costs are different? I just can not understand. Still, there're championships in Brazil and Argentine with lots of DIY prototype cars. Except for British club racing I can not name any European championship (with Youtube covering) of that sort. I can not understand why.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by helgi

So, the question then has transformed a bit. Why have I asked? I've read about BTCS (I suppose) Volvo S60 chassis story - and the car end up racing in Supercar Challenge. In 2012 or 2013. And since then the whole "silhouette" theme became not that popular at all in racing. So, it looks like it's just about exploitation.
But. There're still some very interesting silhouette-like cars in European hill climb racing. Why is this type still popular there but not on, well, usual circuits for racing? The same goes to CN prototypes. Why is it possible to have new cars and even brands (Lobart, Revolta) in hill climbs but not in circuit racing? It's at garage club level I suppose. Costs are different? I just can not understand. Still, there're championships in Brazil and Argentine with lots of DIY prototype cars. Except for British club racing I can not name any European championship (with Youtube covering) of that sort. I can not understand why.

Ah, you are right. A few of the silhouette cars did migrate over to DSC after the end of BTCS. There were also a few BMW M4 Silhouettes and (depending on if you count them: MARC cars from Australia).

I think hillclimbs are a very different game compared to circuit racing. For one, lightness is much more important than on circuits and if there's one thing GT3s and GT4s are not, that's being lightweight.

And then there's also the point that you'll get in much less mileage and run-time in a typical hillclimb weekend compared to circuit racing. And that of course helps with spare parts for consumables (they last longer) and reliability (things don't have time to break).

I'm pretty sure if - let's say - Porsche developed a modern gen lightweight Berg-Spyder and sold it at a somewhat competitive price, we'd see those things crowding out a lot of the constructors currently involved in hillclimbing. Depending on your perspective, it's probably a good thing that hillclimbing is not cool enough for Porsche to bother.

As for Brazil and Argentina, I think one thing they have going for themselves is that they're pretty far away from Europe and so all the cars and parts need to be imported (often without a local distributor) which takes time, money and paperwork and makes people go for homegrown solutions.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I'm pretty sure if - let's say - Porsche developed a modern gen lightweight Berg-Spyder and sold it at a somewhat competitive price, we'd see those things crowding out a lot of the constructors currently involved in hillclimbing. Depending on your perspective, it's probably a good thing that hillclimbing is not cool enough for Porsche to bother.

So, the problem is a rather complicated one. With all respect to Porsche, I hope they won't do that though )
I'd prefer to follow autosport in a more "wide-angle" perspective, rather then buy-race situation with it's apex at monocups. The more I read stories about old-type racing when teams had built their own cars to participate, the less I'm interested in modern racing. I do not follow junior formulae since F3000, do not watch GTs as much as pre-2010. I hope some sort of club racing (maybe in form of Ultimate Cup or how it's called today) will have bigger grids in the future. Just to have an opportunity for engineers to construct something new. I'd like to watch those hill-climb prototypes in circuit racing (even if it may be not that suitable as it looks, but there's some room for improvement). As I'm sure we haven't reached the limits in this area even if lots of people think it's nothing to invent in chassis area for example.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by helgi

Why is it possible to have new cars and even brands (Lobart, Revolta) in hill climbs but not in circuit racing?

Professional championships usually try to draw manufacturers, and they often don't want to compete with silhouettes.

That conflict has caused multiple splits in the Swedish Touring Car Championship, and likewise with the DTM and Supertouring in the 1990s.