Virgin and Lotus want blue flags Banned

[Hungary 89]

I've just spotted this on Autosport

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87186

Am I the only one who feels a little irritated that the new kids on the block think they can waltz into a sport with 60 years of heritage and start saying they want it changed.

It's a cornerstone of this sport that back markers do not deliberately interfere with the Leaders of the race.

I'm guessing this is being driven by how little air time they are getting fighting for 20th place.

Don't get me wrong I'm quite happy we've got some new teams in the mix but sorry folks but if you want more airtime your just going to have to build a faster Car and mix it with the big boys.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Hungary 89

..
Am I the only one who feels a little irritated that the new kids on the block think they can waltz into a sport with 60 years of heritage and start saying they want it changed.....

Not nearly as irritated as i felt when i realized that Ferrari had veto powers to deny new rules.

[6157]

Originally Posted by Wims

Not nearly as irritated as i felt when i realized that Ferrari had veto powers to deny new rules.

If Ferrari can do it, don't see why a 20th place team can do it.

Well except for the hundreds of millions behind Ferrari.

[Adam43]

I have no problem with the upstarts expressing their opinion.

I don't think they are really suggesting that they should be allowed to "deliberately interfere" with the leaders. They are just wanting the blue flag to be less harsh on them and making the point that overtaking the backmarkers used to place more onus on the front runners. I've heard that opinion expressed by others.

For me there is a middle ground. The current implementation is a little OTT. However banning blue flags is too far the other way.

Bring on the discussion maybe a better compromise is possible.

[Hungary 89]

You're right expressing an opinion is fine

Though words like "makes a mockery of the sport" sound like a little more than that.

I suppose my irritation comes from the fact that they knew the rules when they decided to enter an the Blue flag rules are hardly new so if they didn't like them why bother getting involved.

I agree that the rules do probably need looking at as I've seen blue flags waved far too early in the past so to then expect them to pull over after 3 seems mighty unfair to the back marker.

Also clever use of the confusion caused by a back marker can make a race
Hungary 89 being a classic example.

[Adam43]

Odd that you mention that race

[TrapezeArtist]

If the aerodynamic rules encouraged cars that could overtake each other, then the blue flag rule would not be needed in it's present form. Despite this sport having 60 years of heritage (Hungary 89), the obligation for backmarkers to leap out of the way of the leaders has only been around for about 15 or 20 years. It was brought about because of the difficulty of overtaking even a car that was so slow it could be lapped. Nor do I find it unreasonable that teams in their first year express opinions about what could be improved in F1. They have come in with fresh views and are not yet bogged down with "we´ve always done it that way" thinking.

[bravo]

How many times have we seen a very interesting mid pack race ruined by blue flags for a run-away leader?

[Born Racer]

I think the main problem with the blue flag rules has been marshals waving them too early. They sometimes misjudge when to wave them and the driver-to-be-lapped then passes one of his three blue flags too early. There is also no stationary blue/ waved blue system to differentiate between a car coming up behind and a car being all over you, as in lots of other forms of motorsport.

I can understand Virgin and Lotus's position here. On the other hand, if you were to get rid of the blue flag rule (I certainly don't think blue flags are a bad idea- it's good that the drivers are told by marshals that cars are coming up to lap them), you would have to watch out for drivers being uncooperative and persuaded by the big teams to help them out. I suppose that could be left to the discretion of the stewards as to who to punish in the same way driving standard issues are, although you would then enter into the muddy water of consistency over different races, something the present 3 strikes rule avoids.

[mattt]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I think the main problem with the blue flag rules has been marshals waving them too early...

its the people in race control who instruct the marshals when to wave the blue flags

Again its due to Bernies vision of going where the money is since if he stayed in the core of racing the flaggies are good enough to judge blue flags, when in these new countries they are not

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I think the main problem with the blue flag rules has been marshals waving them too early. They sometimes misjudge when to wave them and the driver-to-be-lapped then passes one of his three blue flags too early. There is also no stationary blue/ waved blue system to differentiate between a car coming up behind and a car being all over you, as in lots of other forms of motorsport.

Dont forget that in F1 the marshals are told by race control when to show the blue flags. In all (most) other UK series the marshals user their own judgement...

[JamesH]

Blue flags have always annoyed me. I can see the reason for them, but then I think "These cars are all in the same race", so really, it should be every man for himself.

Most drivers are sensible enough to move out of the way as necessary whether blue flags are shown or not. There is no point in defending too hard against a much faster car lapping you, you only slow yourself down anyway, and you can improve your lap times by slip streaming on the car is past(maybe not in F1 though).

[Born Racer]

Maybe on numerous occasions, but then isn't it up to those drivers letting the lapping car go past that they lose as little time for themselves as possible? They are allowed to pass three blue flags.

[Born Racer]

You sometimes see them being waved when the overtaking driver is not in a position to overtake short of the lapped driver slowing right down.

[mattt]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I think the main problem with the blue flag rules has been marshals waving them too early.

Originally Posted by mattt

its the people in race control who instruct the marshals when to wave the blue flags

Again its due to Bernies vision of going where the money is since if he stayed in the core of racing the flaggies are good enough to judge blue flags, when in these new countries they are not

Originally Posted by Born Racer

You sometimes see them being waved when the overtaking driver is not in a position to overtake short of the lapped driver slowing right down.

You missed my point, DON'T BLAME THE MARSHALS, blame Bernie and the FIA

[Born Racer]

I'm not blaming anyone specifically. I'm commenting on the problem at hand.

[RotorFan]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I'm not blaming anyone specifically. I'm commenting on the problem at hand.

You said marshals misjudge when to wave the blue flag. It isn't a judgement they make in this case.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I like the Blue flags, they add a colorful dimension.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

You said marshals misjudge when to wave the blue flag. It isn't a judgement they make in this case.

That's the second time I've been told it's not their decision!

But that wasn't what I was getting at. I was talking about the problem of blue flags being waved too early, whether the fault be race control's, the marshals's, or Lewis Hamilton's.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I like the Blue flags, they add a colorful dimension.

I prefer the slippery track flag for that.

[wnut]

Maybe Virgin and Lotus should just concentrate on getting on the pace.
If they were in danger of scoring any points then the Blue Flags would automatically cease to be a problem.

How about they black flag any competitor who gets lapped twice!

[old man]

As a driver who, in quite a short racing career saw a lot of blue flags I always appreciated being shown a blue when a faster car was approaching and a waved blue when his pass was imminent, it stopped you being knocked off in the overtaking manouvre as I almost was once by Andy Barton in a libre race at Croft!!!

They are entitled to make the point, gets them in the papers like X factor decisons

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

But that wasn't what I was getting at. I was talking about the problem of blue flags being waved too early, whether the fault be race control's, the marshals's, or Lewis Hamilton's.

Some people, honestly - they'll blame Lewis for anything

I read somewhere recently that in F1 once a lapping car is within 3s of a car to be lapped, race control start to tell marshals to throw the blue flag. 3s might not seem like much, but it could take a whole lap to make that time up.

I far prefer the "flag marshal reads the race" approach which is used... well, everywhere else. Blue flagging is bloody hard to do, properly - and very easy to get wrong (I know I've cocked it up more than once in the last year). You have to keep the race order in your head, taking into account pit stops and so on.
In every other series under FIA regs (or MSA regs) the blue flag is *advisory* and is not an instruction, and the driver to whom it is shown should "let the following car pass at the next available safe opportunity".

[Jamesy-18]

Stupid idea.

Keep them. They'd just create a load more accidents similar to Webber's at Valencia if they got rid of them. Virgin and Lotus should just accept the fact that they are slow and get on with building a quicker car for next year.

They're not in contention for victories, podiums or even points currently. What's the point in fighting to keep a quicker, championship challenging car behind them for no good reason? Not only would they be at risk of ruining somebody's championship, but also damaging their car and losing mileage that even now they desperately need.

[ChrisPage]

I've liked this idea for a while. Obviously lapped cars would need to use a bit of common sense - they aren't 'racing' the lead cars. But for me the onus should be switched - its the leader's job to get past the back markers not the other way round. It would create some good situations too as we saw in Singapore!

Its hardly a deal breaker - I've loved F1 long enough with the blue flags. It would be interesting to trial it for a season and see how it works.

[fourWheelDrift]

I think they are trying to start a debate, not seriously expecting to get rid of blues.

I fully support the idea that cars that are being lapped should not delay faster cars and the blue flag rules are a sensible way to enforce this however the action expected of the car being lapped should be to move off the racing line with minimal loss of time. This obviously means that with the three strikes rule they should not be shown a blue until the faster car is almost on the slower car's gearbox, currently the blues are often out far too early meaning that the slower car has to slow down simply to allow the faster car to catch up within three flag points, this is totally unfair and is disrespectful to the slower teams.