[ELMS] Should privateer LMP1s be reallowed in the Euro Series?

[Deleted]

Those of you that are forced to follow my ramblings know how much I've blamed 'the decline' of privateer LMP1 on ACO killing of them from the European Le Mans Series, and how much I've wanted them to reinstate the class back to the Euro zone.

Currently P1 privateers have to run in expensive global contest of FIA WEC, and nowhere else. They have a obscure, poorly contested sub class for some meaningless trophy that has no particular value, and no chance of competing against the factory cars on pace. And people wonder why the class hasn't took of??? With the reinstate of LMP1 (privateer) class in the ELMS, what you would achieve is

* Back to overall wins, overall glory
* Lowered budget requirements
* More universal accessibility for the class
* Could ramp up customer car market - AND engine with the spec-P2
* Still always automatic Le Mans invite (due to ACO being desperate for class to shine) so basically the same as WEC entry in this context

And of course you could still enter WEC P1 if you wanted, but this could be a viable market. With non-proam mandated driver requirements in P1 you could also help out that side as well, give the top class more credibility. Make the series look more "professional" and not so "feeder series esque" as side product!

Now, with the relatively good health of cost cap LMP2 formula, most people have attempted to block my arguments with the quality field over there and "maybe couple of possible P1 cars" perhaps harming that structure. Which I have not agreed with, but whatever. However, now with the inevitable 4 limited chassis manufacturers + spec engine nonsense coming up in P2, how can anyone try to serve the same argument? Who cares if some crybaby spec Oreca doesn't turn up when they're not allowed overall victory by default anymore? Sure, the level of P2 teams may stay the same, but with the ever more tamed and less variable machinery who should we really be rooting for? And even if P2 still holds up magic to you, what harm is there being a class over that? Other than the very very recent years in ELMS (and I guess the lamecluster Asian series and DP-politics-USCC), P2 has always served as second division category and as these figures here prove, the numbers in ELMS haven't even really changed since P1 was exiled! You cannot please everybody all the time, sometimes big decisions need to be made. Besides, if ACO really has another motive (besides pleasing off French manufacturers and cashing off with spec supply deals) in trying to dumb down P2 and therefore lure some teams and makes back into P1, why would they not attempt to reinstate P1 as globally accessible and viable formula?

There has been some recent interest from several parties towards P1, but with the things being how they are in the WEC right now it's still not the most attractive formula is it?

What say you?

[GT6]

Voted no because at the moment there are not enough privateers to make a real race in WEC but if the class increases in size then i would change to yes

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by GT6

Voted no because at the moment there are not enough privateers to make a real race in WEC but if the class increases in size then i would change to yes

How can the number increase if the formula is unattractive as it is in the WEC? Haven't we waited for what, four seasons since 2012 already, and it has gone nowhere? Some interest in the air but ultimately 95% of people have backed off. I would argue that for it to increase, something needs to be done, and this would be the primary way to do it. Now, the upcoming spec-LMP2 and can be seen as a way to sort of do it from the FIA-ACO point of view, but is completely-scaring-away-our-customers-by-banning-them really the way to advance?

ELMS is also a series free of huge media presence or even fanbase, unlike WEC and to extent USCC, so for a startup year with 'only few cars' on the grid wouldn't really harm anything would it? Later on it could grow up bigger.

[truebeliever]

Have you thought of working for the ACO?

This is almost a no brainer of a concept. What I see as the best aspect of it, is that by allowing P1 back into the ELMS, it gives teams & constructors a means & series to race in which is far less expensive than the WEC This way they can then decide to do the WEC at a later stage, but get their toes wet first in the ELMS.

From this point alone "IF" the ACO do really want more privateer P1 teams, and they should, it is a win win for everyone and makes total common sense. Which means of course, the ACO will never go for it Think of the financial loss they would suffer if they cannot force teams to pay their excessive fees in the WEC!

But I also feel it would raise the status level of the ELMS with no detriment to the WEC. You could ban facyory P1 teams and everyone is happy. Let's be honest, some of the top P2 teams, even with a "spec" series, would be competitive with some of the privateer P1 teams should this ever come to be, so the racing would be inherently better.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

Have you thought of working for the ACO?

This is almost a no brainer of a concept. What I see as the best aspect of it, is that by allowing P1 back into the ELMS, it gives teams & constructors a means & series to race in which is far less expensive than the WEC This way they can then decide to do the WEC at a later stage, but get their toes wet first in the ELMS.

From this point alone "IF" the ACO do really want more privateer P1 teams, and they should, it is a win win for everyone and makes total common sense. Which means of course, the ACO will never go for it Think of the financial loss they would suffer if they cannot force teams to pay their excessive fees in the WEC!

But I also feel it would raise the status level of the ELMS with no detriment to the WEC. You could ban facyory P1 teams and everyone is happy. Let's be honest, some of the top P2 teams, even with a "spec" series, would be competitive with some of the privateer P1 teams should this ever come to be, so the racing would be inherently better.

ACO would probably see me as too big of an anarchist or something...

It does make a lot of sense does it? With the current pace and reliability of privateer P1s, yeah I can also see your point of P2s "technically" still being sorta competitive with them as well. Look at some of the races in WEC last year! The new spec-breed of P2 has also been said to be a bit faster than the current one.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Chiana

ACO would probably see me as too big of an anarchist or something...

You could strengthen your job application by getting some numbers (costs, potential income) and reactions (from e.g. Kolles Rebellion Wolf Strakka ESM), working this thing out as a doable concept for '16 including checking all the paperwork, necessities on FIA grades, whatnot, ...

Because if you don't make it happen, it's not gonna happen. And it's too good not to happen. So. Chiana. Go work for the ACO. Fix that ship. Prevent sinkage. I'll be at at least one ELMS race (this year) and will happily drown you in free beer (or whatever booze you desire) for it (seeing how you'll be present to groom all them contacts).

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Chiana

* Back to overall wins, overall glory
* Lowered budget requirements

Yes.

At the moment for whatever reason the ACO are intent on bullying chassis manufacturers into P1 without realizing why they didn't enter P1 (or took so long in a couple of cases) in the first place. It's a significant increase in effort for 4th at the absolute most.

That's not to say there aren't issues, most of which concern upsetting the already-plentiful apple cart, but as we've seen the ACO aren't afraid of pushing people around if it suits their interests. Ultimately I think it would benefit more people than it hindered, giving smaller manufacturers a place to refine their chassis before stepping up to the WEC and allowing those teams who want to try P1 to do so on a more cost-effective local scale.

[Maelochs]

I'm at work and can't really read all this but ... I think P2 teams would show up anyway, because they are in it to race. Whether for overall or class wins, the big thing seems to be that the rich gentlemen want to drive fast cars.

I'd guess that P1-L wouldn't change that at all ... so, yes!!

[Pontlieue]

I voted yes. The advantages are obvious: a better top class for ELMS, increased LMP1 market, an opportunity for privateer LMP1 teams to compete for overall wins on a lower budget than for running in WEC and more LMP1 cars at Le Mans. However, they need to make sure there are at least 4-5 teams commited for the season. Otherwise we could end up with a two-car top class like the ALMS in its final years.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Pontlieue

I voted yes. The advantages are obvious: a better top class for ELMS, increased LMP1 market, an opportunity for privateer LMP1 teams to compete for overall wins on a lower budget than for running in WEC and more LMP1 cars at Le Mans. However, they need to make sure there are at least 4-5 teams commited for the season. Otherwise we could end up with a two-car top class like the ALMS in its final years.

My thought exactly! I really really hope this is where ACO is heading with the LMP2-spec'ifying. Get ESM, SMP, Strakka and one or two more to run ELMS LMP1 instead and we might actually get the privateer/customer market rolling in LMP1 again, similar to what we have seen in LMP2 last 3 or so years.

[Simmi]

It does make a lot of sense to bring something like this in to coincide with the destruction of P2.

I think you could potentially attract a lot of single seater guys with money to the top class this way. I don't think it would massively blunt the P2 numbers in the series. Although I have enjoyed the battles in the ELMS in the last few years. Okay we know it's multi-class racing but it does mean more (to everyone) when it's for THE win.

I guess it's just weighing the balance between losing that and potentially going back to a two-car race like old ALMS events - at least in the beginning.

If we lost Rebellion from the WEC it would certainly be sad. I don't think anyone would be happy about the situation. Would it actually affect my enjoyment of watching the series? No I don't think it would. Like Chiana says they are often racing themselves. P1 in the ELMS might see teams make good on turning their 'built to P1 regulations' P2 car into a P1.

If I had to put money on it I don't see the likes of SARD, Wolf, Kairos etc pulling off a WEC P1 programme. Is something credible coming down the pipe to really challenge Rebellion? Personally I can't see it. And yeah as we all know there's zero chance you can balance them with the works cars.

[GT6]

I am sorry that i do not agree with most on here but leaving the WEC which is making good progress in becoming a top class series to a few factory teams that could disappear very quickly is very risky, things are working well at the moment so leave them alone, perhaps things will change soon but if we change things again it might put things back again

[Deleted]

Let's look at the current/upcoming P2 chassis manufacturers that are gonna be out of job come 2017 (or at the very least 2018 once grandfathering has ended)
* Dome (for sure)
* SMP (for sure)
* Wolf (for sure)
* HPD (almost sure)
* Zytek-Gibson (possibly)
* Couple of stillborn or otherwise delayed open top constructors

Of those, we already know HPD and Dome would build P1 cars if they had customers, which they currently don't in the sorry state WEC sub class. Furthermore Wolf has just said they would wish to go P1 if they're not allowed in P2 after spec-rules.

Add in other people that have expressed interest in either building P1 chassis, or having customer car
* Oak/Onroak (plans still exist)
* SARD (main desire is in P1)
* Kairos (just today given three year aim to be in P1)
* Alpine (some talk last year)
* Perrinn (probably dead in the water but who knows)
* ADESS (backed off already)
others I probably forgot

And engine manufacturers that will or could be out of job after spec-engine in P2 + people that have said they have capacity for having P1 engines or that have been brought up in discussions
* Judd (likely dead from P2 + has P1 desires)
* HPD (likely dead from P2 + has P1 desires)
* Audi (mentioned)
* Zytek (mentioned)
* Cosworth (mentioned)
* Toyota (with Rebellion deal gone)
others I probably forgot

And current existing suppliers
* Oreca
* Kodewa
* AER engine

That's hell of a lot of maybes and who-knows and we'll-sees and whatnot, but the point is that there is so much potential, readiness and will to have this class back to it's former glory, but little desire in reality to head there when you have something as unmarketable as WEC LMP1 Non-Hybrid or whatever it's called as the one and only sole option! And as Simmi says, not viable for little guys.

The ACO loves to speak of their "pyramid of endurance", placing WEC on top and everything else below as mere "feeder series". Which you can agree or disagree as idea, as in separating everything in small boxes and all the roads lead to Rome. But let's look at these stepping stone places

GTC - ELMS & AsLMS to-come-USCC (= to advance into GTE in general)
GTE - ELMS & AsLMS & USCC (= to stay or advance into WEC GTE)
LMP3/PC/CN - ELMS & AsLMS & USCC (= to advance into P2 in general)
LMP2 - ELMS & AsLMS & USCC (= to stay or advance into WEC P2)
LMP1 "Non-Hybrid" - ... ... ...

Who thought this was a good business plan for P1 Privateer?

[Maelochs]

If (when) most of the factories leave WEC, it would be really good if ELMS had a bunch of up-and-running P1L teams able to move over or expand into WEC.

As it stands, WEC could be left hanging if a couple manufacturers decide they have spent enough.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by GT6

I am sorry that i do not agree with most on here but leaving the WEC which is making good progress in becoming a top class series to a few factory teams that could disappear very quickly is very risky, things are working well at the moment so leave them alone, perhaps things will change soon but if we change things again it might put things back again

Originally Posted by Maelochs

If (when) most of the factories leave WEC, it would be really good if ELMS had a bunch of up-and-running P1L teams able to move over or expand into WEC.

As it stands, WEC could be left hanging if a couple manufacturers decide they have spent enough.

Indeed, if you don't have "plan B" up and running when the bail-out happens how exactly can you save anything? And that "plan B" can only be achieved by rediscovering the group of cars in question, by making them globally accessible again.

And as you can see from late 2013 WEC when you only had 2 Audis and 1 Toyota at one point - meaning that only one of them retiring meant automatic overall podium in 6h race - how many privateers where there to run 'save the day'? Yeah, one Rebellion Lola... didn't even bother to run the second one when possible, and Strakka saw no benefit whatsoever...

---

Besides, and as Jay sort of said, if and when the manufacturers do bail out, privateer field may save WEC from depleted grids and "shame" and all, but it is gonna lead to decreased interest and prestige (bar LM) in the series in any case. Because manufacturer cars are always the popularity magnets, not privateers.

In 2012 when there still was a healthy LMP1 privateer field and Peugeot bailed out before start of the season, everyone screamed that it was gonna be all over with "only Audi and bunch of privateers out there". Well until Toyota upped up their commitment of course, but you get the point - the privateers ain't gonna save the world championship alone from bailed out manufacturer cars. Regional series yes, but not world championship. What they are gonna do is keep it alive, but hardly restore it to same point.

In any case, building up healthy LMP1 all-the-way-through in general is important, because there is more to top line sportscar racing than just the world championship.

Dare I say that if LMP2 had been run the same way as this new regs LMP1-L/Non-Hybrid, and ELMS + other regional series were only open for PC/P3 cars, I feel P2 would be almost as equally depleted as P1 privateer now. Not as badly I suppose as it would still be relatively cheap and less difficult place to gain auto entry into Le Mans, but without proper global market and limited spots on the grid it wouldn't really work out the same way as now.

Do not throw all the eggs in the same basket applies here too.

[FLGTFAN]

My vote is a definitive YES, but I wonder if ELMS has the ability to do such a thing. Would a decision such as this create a backlash from the ACO? In my simple-minded USA perspective, I'm thinking the ELMS is not exactly independent of the ACO/WEC juggernaut. It makes me ill to think about all of the excellent LMP1 machinery that has been obsoleted in the last few years.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by FLGTFAN

My vote is a definitive YES, but I wonder if ELMS has the ability to do such a thing. Would a decision such as this create a backlash from the ACO? In my simple-minded USA perspective, I'm thinking the ELMS is not exactly independent of the ACO/WEC juggernaut. It makes me ill to think about all of the excellent LMP1 machinery that has been obsoleted in the last few years.

ELMS's been fully run by the ACO after 2012 disaster when the old mostly-ACO-but-not-entirely-organization led by promoter Patrick Peter almost destroyed the series, so whatever they come up with fully corresponds with the French bunkers!

[J Jay]

There's no need to be sorry, we're all adults here (well I do have my moments!)

Originally Posted by GT6

I am sorry that I do not agree with most on here but leaving the WEC which is making good progress in becoming a top class series to a few factory teams that could disappear very quickly is very risky, things are working well at the moment so leave them alone, perhaps things will change soon but if we change things again it might put things back again

However I would contend this point in particular. The WEC is undeniably making good progress, but that is largely (all?) due to the factories anyway, both in terms of the clout they bring and the attention they attract. So a scenario with them leaving is just as pap for everyone involved whether privateers P1s are in the WEC or a regional series. In the latter case, the ACO will restore them to the WEC in short order anyway to protect their pride & joy.

[Simmi]

I think if we did have some down years and lost a pile of manufacturers - you'd get a lot more privateers stepping up to fill that void. They could be ready and waiting in the ELMS.

On the flipside, without any downturn in manufacturer interest I'm not really sure how many prospective P1 teams would ever step up from the ELMS into the WEC.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Simmi

On the flipside, without any downturn in manufacturer interest I'm not really sure how many prospective P1 teams would ever step up from the ELMS into the WEC.

Perhaps so, but considering that between 2013-2015 we've always had just 1-3 privateer entries lined up, it's not like it could get much worse from current situation either

Of course at Le Mans, you would still see all the P1s as one big bunch.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Perhaps so, but considering that between 2013-2015 we've always had just 1-3 privateer entries lined up, it's not like it could get much worse from current situation either

Yeah this is completely true. I actually think we're more likely to see another manufacturer announcement in the next two years than we are to see a privateer two-car team of the same calibre as Rebellion.

I think everyone realizes that the current P1 situation can't last. But for it to completely fall apart (if that even happens) is going to take quite a few years. What do you do in the meantime if you're an ambitious privateer?

I don't think this proposal would really be a risk to WEC. It might actually send a few more strong P2 teams their way. If they are back to racing for a class win they might go in search of the greater prestige. But I think most would stay put.

[Bandicoot17]

Without trying to put a downer on things (as I think this is quite a good idea) I just don't think this would work.

All the constructors who expressed an interest in providing an 'L' car, eventually had to backtrack and used the idea as the basis for the P2 cars we have now (HPD, Ligier) Oreca's 05 is quite obviously based upon the R-One too. I imagine this was always the plan, but throw into the mix that we now are only going to have 4 P2 constructors, how exactly are the Domes (et al) of the world going to be able to afford to design and build a competitive car of which they will probably sell only 1 or 2 cars. They can't build a load of P2's and sell them off to recuperate the costs.

If it was actually made cheap enough that it was a viable option for the current P2 teams, then ACO/FIA will have basically killed the P2 class off as why would they run around playing second fiddle to this new faster class that was only a bit more expensive. This would probably also **** off the 4 P2 manufacturers as well, more trouble than it's worth I guess.

These cars are still going to be slower than the factory teams, so they'll turn up at LM and be utterly humiliated, and with 11 factory cars at LM they have little to no hope of even securing an overall podium. So we'd need to put them in their own class or something.

I'm not really sure what this would achieve as the cars would still be slow and they'd probably look like the P2's and only be a bit faster.

I've probably got this all wrong but it all came together in my head quite quickly.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

Without trying to put a downer on things (as I think this is quite a good idea) I just don't think this would work.

All the constructors who expressed an interest in providing an 'L' car, eventually had to backtrack and used the idea as the basis for the P2 cars we have now (HPD, Ligier) Oreca's 05 is quite obviously based upon the R-One too. I imagine this was always the plan, but throw into the mix that we now are only going to have 4 P2 constructors, how exactly are the Domes (et al) of the world going to be able to afford to design and build a competitive car of which they will probably sell only 1 or 2 cars. They can't build a load of P2's and sell them off to recuperate the costs.

If it was actually made cheap enough that it was a viable option for the current P2 teams, then ACO/FIA will have basically killed the P2 class off as why would they run around playing second fiddle to this new faster class that was only a bit more expensive. This would probably also **** off the 4 P2 manufacturers as well, more trouble than it's worth I guess.

These cars are still going to be slower than the factory teams, so they'll turn up at LM and be utterly humiliated, and with 11 factory cars at LM they have little to no hope of even securing an overall podium. So we'd need to put them in their own class or something.

I'm not really sure what this would achieve as the cars would still be slow and they'd probably look like the P2's and only be a bit faster.

I've probably got this all wrong but it all came together in my head quite quickly.

You only need to look at late 2000's and see how many P1s turned up at Le Mans despite having absolutely zero choice against the brutal diesel dominance. Were all of them praying for the factory cars to fall apart one by one in order to have decent result? Of course not. And they didn't have sub class trophies back then either. These same cars were running in LMS and ALMS and went to Le Mans because it's the world biggest motor race and best bang for buck there is in the business. Which is still the case.

What you describe there - and with the spec-P2s being lowered down as well - is the dilemma that's been vacating sportscar racing for few years now - the 'everybody needs to be able to win' annoyance. Now you have pro-am classes , sub classes, cost caps, lower divisions upgraded to first class service, factories separated from privateers, and more performance balancing. This all means that people - as in teams and drivers - now expect it to be easier. Everything catered. But it can be broken, if you have the guts to make changes. Re-downgrading P2 is the first step. Plus, we know ACO can make harsh decisions, just look at the new "glorious" age of P2...

The "new" P2 manufacturers itself are gonna care about having monopoly in the selected market and providing cheap ass cars for the customers, not caring if they win races overall (except in US but that's different case altogether).

Now, how would Domes and so on be afford to construct the new P1 chassis? Well they ain't gonna build em unless someones wants to buy them first right (unless we're speaking of the likes of SMP who'd make the cars only for themselves) so what would be different in this situation with P1 allowed in ELMS? With the lowered costs of regional series, you know cheap land based logistics + only five round sparsely situated calendar + shorter 4 hour races, and the chance to win races overall, surely the thought for obtaining car for that would be more intriguing than currently. We have discussed the obscurity of running in WEC P1 Non hybrid already. No manufacturer expects to build huge fleet of P1 cars in this day and age, so 1-2 constructed cars (with maintenance service) per manufacturer is not at all unrealistic view on how it would go.

What would all of this achieve? Well a group of cars below factory LMP1s - in right environment - that wouldn't all be
a) spec based
b) proam restricted
c) cost cap
d) boring
which is what LMP2 is gonna be

For speeds, P1 Non hybrid speeds can me be modified, and other class performances descreased, ACO does it all the time.

And in any case, LMP1 cannot be transfered into factory-class-only, for reasons already told and more.

---

Sorry if I'm rambling nonsense again and repeating same things over and over again. I blame the almost 2AM timing of writing and low coffee levels...

[Maelochs]

Bandicoot makes a lot of sense, but being into sports car racing isn't rational so ....

The hopes, as Chiana notes, are that teams who really want to Race ... as in hot-rod the motors, change the aero, play with the suspension ... and who don't want to have to find a Silver just to be allowed on track, might want to actually go out and Race.

I look at the GTP days, where you could see three Porsche 962s side by side and barely tell they were all the same car. Teams built all kinds of bodywork, even modded the tubs ... probably more than would be allowed nowadays (and isn't that sad to say) but still teams were willing and eager ...

Look at Dyson trying isobutanol and Flybrid power in ALMS. They didn't want a turn-key racer, they want ed to Be racers.

Would it work financially? Kind fo doubtful. Would FIA allow it? Almost certainly not. Would it be a Vast improvement over the current situation?

No Doubt.

[BrentJackson]

As with the others, I don't see how this has any chance of working. Sure, teams want to be racers, but P1 costs even within the WEC are several times that of P2 cars. OK, the ELMS is far cheaper as a series, but that was also the case with the ALMS (and the ALMS's exposure was far higher), but the ALMS struggled to get more than two or three P1s. The cost of it is simply far too high. Sure, the ELMS is lower cost and you would almost certainly get that Le Mans invite, but who is gonna be able to swing upping the cost by at least 2-3 times to get the same trophy?

Privateer P1 is dead, guys. It isn't coming back, ever. And the ACO's idiotic decision to destroy the P2 category to allow Oreca and Onroak to get paid will one day IMO put paid to the whole idea of Le Mans prototypes in favor of increasingly big-bore GT cars. And IMO, if the future is what the rules say it should be, that day can't come soon enough.