New pickup trucks and utes

[JHamilton]

Inspired by NaBUru38’s threads in this forum and since a pickup truck has been the best selling vehicle in the world the past two years, I wanted to start this thread. We’ve got some interesting stuff coming out later this year and there are more and more efficient offerings every year that open up the market to new people. And I love trucks. If you know of a truck/ute model sold in your market, please post up, I’d love to learn about it.

I’ll start with the best selling car in North America, the Ford F-series.

This platform was introduced in the 2015 model year with an all aluminum body, but the front facia has been updated and added a new 3.3L V6 to the lineup. The 3.5L Ford GT engine is still the top of the range.





Raptor:


Ford’s Super Duty line were all new in 2017 and now also have an aluminum body. I haven’t been in one yet but this is probably the most advanced truck on the road right now. Top engine is still the 440hp, 925lb/ft 6.7L Powerstroke diesel.

[JHamilton]

Chevrolet/GMC half ton and heavy duty trucks carry over from last year, but there is a new model coming out this year. The half ton Silverado was revealed a few weeks ago and looks incredibly sharp. They are not switching to an aluminum body but are adding some new turbocharged engines as well as a diesel to the lineup. The 10 speed automatic transmission shared with Ford will debut in this new truck. Expect the HD models to come out the following year.






Chevy’s “mid size” truck, the Colorado is unchanged with exception of the addition of the ZR2 model, which is a mini-Raptor using similar Fox suspension. I’ve seen a few of these around and it’s a cool little stomper.

[JHamilton]

The 2nd gen Toyota Tundra is the oldest half ton pickup currently on sale having come out for the 2007 model year. Still a solid truck although there is something not quite right about the proportions. No one seems to be sure when a new model will be released but it has to be soon. Here is a photo of the facelifted truck.



The Tacoma/Hilux is unchanged for this model year. It’s still selling well although GM made a big dent in sales with the new Colorado/Canyon.





Nissan redesigned the Titan a couple of years ago coming out with the ⅝ ton XD first. Sales were extremely slow but have picked up since the ½ ton was released. In fairness, it does look like a 5 year old Ford:



The 5L Cummins diesel in the XD is a very cool option however.

The Nissan Frontier/Navara is unchanged this year but a Mercedes Benz version called X-class came out last year. It is not on sale in North America for some reason. Anybody seen one?

[JHamilton]

The half ton Ram’s are the 2nd oldest line of trucks, entering their 10th model year. Very few changes this year as this is the final year for the 4th gen. The new Ram has not been publicly released yet but spy photos are out. Not much is known, but it is believed to be the same engine lineup… if it ain’t broke.







It may appear at the Detroit auto show next weekend. I hope so!

The heavy duty trucks are unchanged except the 6.7L Cummins diesel has been updated and now has 930lb/ft of torque.

[broadrun96]

The new Ram is expected to debut at NAIAS this weekend. Nothing much changed and still teasing with the 6.4L 1500 "Baby Power Wagon."

Also expecting an announcement of the baby PowerStroke 3.0L for the F150 for 2019 MY and confirmation of a baby DuraMax for 2020, possibly the 4.5L from a while back rebuilt for modern controls.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

The new Ram is expected to debut at NAIAS this weekend. Nothing much changed and still teasing with the 6.4L 1500 "Baby Power Wagon."

Also expecting an announcement of the baby PowerStroke 3.0L for the F150 for 2019 MY and confirmation of a baby DuraMax for 2020, possibly the 4.5L from a while back rebuilt for modern controls.

Good! I had not seen confirmation from FCA that it was happening!

I was going to mention the 3L Powerstroke, but it got very quiet late last year. I wonder if there are some development issues? I thought it seemed an odd decision anyway considering the investment into the EcoBoost engines.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I knew you would come up with some interesting stuff from the South American markets! I will have to study better when I'm at home and not work.

To add this same information about the N.American trucks, they are delineated by mid-size (Colorado/Canyon, Frontier, Tacoma) and full size. Full size trucks are separated by payload (imperial weights) into 1/2 ton (Light Duty), 3/4 ton (Heavy Duty), and 1 ton (HD). You will also see this as 1500/150, 2500/250, and 3500/350. To make things more confusing, modern full size trucks payloads are way, way above these ratings - An average half ton pickup has a payload capacity of 1500-2000 lbs, a 3/4 ton pickups average 3-4000lbs and 1 ton average 4-7000 lbs.

Pricing is all over the map as well as you can buy a F-150 for $20,000 all the way to $70,000. Luxury versions of HD pickups can approach $100,000. The reason they sell so well, however, is that you can get a well equipped half ton for less than comparably equipped 3-series BMW.

I was puttering around on Ram's site last week, top of the line Limited Tungsten 3500 duallie will run you just under 100k MSRP. But it has a sweet $300 suede headliner.

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Good! I had not seen confirmation from FCA that it was happening!

I was going to mention the 3L Powerstroke, but it got very quiet late last year. I wonder if there are some development issues? I thought it seemed an odd decision anyway considering the investment into the EcoBoost engines.

Both of those bits I got from an unofficial FCA news site last week. Looks like the unveiling of the new split-tailgate design could be this weekend as well. With possible integrated ramps under the bed. Ford apparently confirmed the diesel late last year but without a time frame other than 2018. Doubt it will be for a WHILE, the 2017 EcoDiesels were JUST released by the EPA. The 2018s are rolling off the line and hitting lots, good luck selling a year old truck Ram. And screw you EPA.

Although apparently I could be in for a refund check on my truck sometime this year with the settlement from FCA coming this year.

[NaBUru38]

In South America, pickups like the Ranger, S10 and Hilux are called "mid-size".

Our (sub)compact truck market is less varied than 20 years ago.

The oldest one is the Fiat Strada, launched in 1996 based on the Fiat Palio. Each facelift has been labelled as generation. The last one is seriously ugly, especially the Adventure version. As far as I know, there's no short plans for a replacement.




The last-gen Volkswagen Saveiro, based on the Gol, was launched in 2009. It's the prettiest. It was facelifted in 2013 and 2016.




The first generation Chevrolet Montana was launched in 2003, based on the Chevrolet Corsa II (South American Opel Corsa C). The second generation Montana was launched in 2010, based on the Chevrolet Agile, whose platform actually comes from the Chevrolet Corsa Classic (Opel Corsa B).

[NaBUru38]

(Sub)compact pickups are much more popular in Brazil (5% share) than Argentina (2%)

2017 sales in Brazil:

Fiat Strada: 54.870
Volkswagen Saveiro: 42.414
Chevrolet Montana: 14.872

2017 sales in Argentina:

Volkswagen Saveiro: 8.610
Fiat Strada: 7.464
Chevrolet Montana: 304

[NaBUru38]

These (sub)compact pickups are 4.50 m long, and can carry 700 kg.
Mid-size pickup trucks are 5.20 m long, and can carry 1000 kg.
The latter are much more expensive, of course.

In 2015, the Renault Duster Oroch was launched. It's 4.70 m long with double cab, but can carry only 650 kg.




In 2016, the Fiat Toro was launched. It's 4.90 m long, but can carry 1000 kg. And it's much cheaper than mid-size trucks.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

These (sub)compact pickups are 4.50 m long, and can carry 700 kg.
Mid-size pickup trucks are 5.20 m long, and can carry 1000 kg.
The latter are much more expensive, of course.

I knew you would come up with some interesting stuff from the South American markets! I will have to study better when I'm at home and not work.

To add this same information about the N.American trucks, they are delineated by mid-size (Colorado/Canyon, Frontier, Tacoma) and full size. Full size trucks are separated by payload (imperial weights) into 1/2 ton (Light Duty), 3/4 ton (Heavy Duty), and 1 ton (HD). You will also see this as 1500/150, 2500/250, and 3500/350. To make things more confusing, modern full size trucks payloads are way, way above these ratings - An average half ton pickup has a payload capacity of 1500-2000 lbs, a 3/4 ton pickups average 3-4000lbs and 1 ton average 4-7000 lbs.

Pricing is all over the map as well as you can buy a F-150 for $20,000 all the way to $70,000. Luxury versions of HD pickups can approach $100,000. The reason they sell so well, however, is that you can get a well equipped half ton for less than comparably equipped 3-series BMW.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

In 2016, the Fiat Toro was launched. It's 4.90 m long, but can carry 1000 kg. And it's much cheaper than mid-size trucks.

The Fiat Toro has been restyled.







A new 1.3L 185 hp turbo gasoline engine has been added.

[NaBUru38]

Conversely, the mid-size pickup market is much more significant in Argentina (14%) than Brazil (8%).

2017 mid-size pickups sales in Brazil:

Fiat Toro: 50.723
Toyota Hilux: 34.368
Chevrolet S-10: 30.438
Ford Ranger: 17.830
Volkswagen Amarok: 11.964
Renault Duster Oroch: 11.047
Mitsubishi L200: 9.946

2017 mid-size pickups sales in Argentina:

Toyota Hilux: 33.914
Volkswagen Amarok: 22.361
Ford Ranger: 20.089
Fiat Toro: 15.973
Renault Duster Oroch: 15.841
Chevrolet S-10: 13.918

[BertMk2]

That Fiat is truly, truly hideous - it looks like something that was made on scrapheap challenge

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

That Fiat is truly, truly hideous - it looks like something that was made on scrapheap challenge

Looks like a Honda 'truck' that was left in the dryer a bit too long.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

That Fiat is truly, truly hideous - it looks like something that was made on scrapheap challenge

It is pretty bad - It's the plastic cladding that makes it look so incohesive. The Renault on the other hand, looks pretty sharp to me. We're going to find you a dream truck yet Bert!


I forgot the Honda Ridgeline, but so does everyone else. Here's a truck that would do much better in the South American market, but isn't sold there.

[NaBUru38]

South American pickups usually have four-cylinder engines. Only the top of range versions of mid-size have five or six cylinders.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Conversely, the mid-size pickup market is much more significant in Argentina (14%) than Brazil (8%).

2017 mid-size pickups sales in Brazil:

Fiat Toro: 50.723
Toyota Hilux: 34.368
Chevrolet S-10: 30.438
Ford Ranger: 17.830
Volkswagen Amarok: 11.964
Renault Duster Oroch: 11.047
Mitsubishi L200: 9.946

2017 mid-size pickups sales in Argentina:

Toyota Hilux: 33.914
Volkswagen Amarok: 22.361
Ford Ranger: 20.089
Fiat Toro: 15.973
Renault Duster Oroch: 15.841
Chevrolet S-10: 13.918

I went down a wikipedia rabbit hole researching these compact utes last night. Two hours I'll never get back, so thanks for that!

The most surprising things to me is that Nissan doesn't sell the Frontier/Navarro down there... Or if they do, they don't sell many. You call a S-10 a S-10, which is the proper name for that truck, not "Colorado".

Lastly, why doesn't Ford sell the international Ranger here? They dominated the mid-size market and just stopped? I think it looks great and they'd sell tons of them.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Lastly, why doesn't Ford sell the international Ranger here? They dominated the mid-size market and just stopped? I think it looks great and they'd sell tons of them.

not sure why they stopped...guessing it was just down to how popular their F-Series trucks are over here.

but good news, the Ranger will be coming back to N.America (not sure if its a new design for our market though) along with an all new Ford Bronco in the next year or so i think.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

not sure why they stopped...guessing it was just down to how popular their F-Series trucks are over here.

but good news, the Ranger will be coming back to N.America (not sure if its a new design for our market though) along with an all new Ford Bronco in the next year or so i think.

Supposedly imported DESIGN, to be built at that factory our fearless leader visited last fall. Can't import the trucks, taxes are killer outside of Mexico builds.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

not sure why they stopped...guessing it was just down to how popular their F-Series trucks are over here.

but good news, the Ranger will be coming back to N.America (not sure if its a new design for our market though) along with an all new Ford Bronco in the next year or so i think.

That's a good point. The last time I was shopping I looked at a Toyota Tacoma and, while it's a great little truck, the value wasn't there. For a few thousand more, I could be in an equally equipped F-150.

Same could be said for the Ecoboost engines. For a $3,000 premium, you get a "real world" extra 2 mpg but it sound like... well, you know what a Ford GT sounds like. It's just not worth it IMO. You gotta get the Coyote or the incoming diesel.

I forgot about the Bronco! I also didn't know it was attached to the Ranger. I'm not necessarily a Ford guy, but it would be great to have those models back!

[broadrun96]

Sorry, NAIAS press preview is Jan 14-16. The public show is Jan 20-28. So maybe car unveils early next week to the media.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Both of those bits I got from an unofficial FCA news site last week. Looks like the unveiling of the new split-tailgate design could be this weekend as well. With possible integrated ramps under the bed. Ford apparently confirmed the diesel late last year but without a time frame other than 2018. Doubt it will be for a WHILE, the 2017 EcoDiesels were JUST released by the EPA. The 2018s are rolling off the line and hitting lots, good luck selling a year old truck Ram. And screw you EPA.

Although apparently I could be in for a refund check on my truck sometime this year with the settlement from FCA coming this year.

What was the final settlement? What changed with the "new" diesel? Are you still enjoying yours?

I have a hard time believing with the additional mileage that you get that the diesel is actually more pollutant than the Hemi if judged by the gallon or mile.

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Sorry, NAIAS press preview is Jan 14-16. The public show is Jan 20-28. So maybe car unveils early next week to the media.

Yes, it's before the actual show that they have the press launches with smoke, show girls and paper mache rocks.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Lastly, why doesn't Ford sell the international Ranger here? They dominated the mid-size market and just stopped? I think it looks great and they'd sell tons of them.

They are tried multiple times to bring that truck stateside and the truck division apparently vetoes it. It's usually blamed on the ever-present chicken tax, light truck tariff is the ONLY piece of that legislation left on the books and Ford hates it with a passion. See the warehouses in Baltimore filled with Transit city van seats so they could be imported at a lower tax rate. It was rumored that Ranger chassis would be the basis of the new Bronco (really a Bronco II, it's NOT on a 150 chassis so baby bronco) but I haven't followed that in a while. The latest articles I've seen from fall all indicate that Ranger is coming, although it was 2018 and now it's 2020 MY. And the Bronco will be based off of the Ranger but not as small as a Bronco II. But the Ranger is slightly smaller than that Ranger so...???

Originally Posted by JHamilton

What was the final settlement? What changed with the "new" diesel? Are you still enjoying yours?

I have a hard time believing with the additional mileage that you get that the diesel is actually more pollutant than the Hemi if judged by the gallon or mile.

Supposedly settlements were exchanged by FCA and the EPA and the findings were released. Trucks all meet/exceed diesel emissions, equipment on the engines were found to be not included in the tested engine spec and could potentially allow changes outside of the tested spec. After testing, no changes were noted but still a violation of emissions rules. The last I had seen was an estimated 1-2k per vehicle was a well accepted guess but who knows. No emissions testing Ga on diesel vehicles so it doesn't really impact me in the wallet.

It is supposedly the same engine since the introduction. The only change caused a delay in 2016 model release, oil changed from a single spec 5W-30 to the more commonly available Rotella T6 style 5W-40 after engine wear concerns. So far at 85k in 3.5 years I'm running around 25 mpg with mostly city driving. A full city tank I can dip to 22-23. On the highway, over 30 most of the time, especially if I can keep it under 70. Highest tank I remember was 835 miles on less than the full 26 gallon tank going to and from Charlotte. And that's with the one of the heaviest curb weight chassis you can get, 5705 of my 6950 GVWR.

Drawbacks so far are small for me. It does not have a manual DPF switch so I have had warnings to get on the highway to burn the filter clean, 30 mph commuting on Atlanta city streets doesn't get it hot enough. I have had 2 limp-mode errors, both early on, and one involved a month in the shop. And the standard 3rd brake light leak kept filling the underseat box with water, fixed on warranty with new under carpet padding. An oil change, like most diesels is costly; think I'm usually around 125 bucks but filters are still only available at the dealership or online in multipacks I always forget to order. And 10k change interval helps a bit but diesel oil is expensive and it takes gallons. Amazon Eco-diesel filters are NOT the right ones usually it seems. And I'm on the 5th fuel filter at 50 bucks and hour of my time.

It does make me laugh to read Autoweek's gushing over the Jag built 3L diesel ending up in the F-150 with the 10 speed. They keep harping on it breaking 30 mpg on the EPA rating. They haven't kept up with the Ram, 2016 and up Rams have a 27 4x4, 29 4x2 rating but keep reporting a 27 EPA rating. Expected to be 30 mpg with the Express HFE if it gets approval for 2018, but the EPA has held up ALL 2018 light-duty diesels from approval so far. And ZF and Aisin both have thoughts about the GM/Ford 10 speed and it is NOT good. ZF made a 10 and Bentley wouldn't buy it, searched for gears all day and cost 50% more. I couldn't imagine the truck searching for more gears and I'm usually at 1250 rpm at 65 as it is, there just isn't power any lower so why hold the engine there or every dip, crest, flinch on the throttle will be a shift.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

They are tried multiple times to bring that truck stateside and the truck division apparently vetoes it. It's usually blamed on the ever-present chicken tax, light truck tariff is the ONLY piece of that legislation left on the books and Ford hates it with a passion. See the warehouses in Baltimore filled with Transit city van seats so they could be imported at a lower tax rate. It was rumored that Ranger chassis would be the basis of the new Bronco (really a Bronco II, it's NOT on a 150 chassis so baby bronco) but I haven't followed that in a while. The latest articles I've seen from fall all indicate that Ranger is coming, although it was 2018 and now it's 2020 MY. And the Bronco will be based off of the Ranger but not as small as a Bronco II. But the Ranger is slightly smaller than that Ranger so...???



Supposedly settlements were exchanged by FCA and the EPA and the findings were released. Trucks all meet/exceed diesel emissions, equipment on the engines were found to be not included in the tested engine spec and could potentially allow changes outside of the tested spec. After testing, no changes were noted but still a violation of emissions rules. The last I had seen was an estimated 1-2k per vehicle was a well accepted guess but who knows. No emissions testing Ga on diesel vehicles so it doesn't really impact me in the wallet.

It is supposedly the same engine since the introduction. The only change caused a delay in 2016 model release, oil changed from a single spec 5W-30 to the more commonly available Rotella T6 style 5W-40 after engine wear concerns. So far at 85k in 3.5 years I'm running around 25 mpg with mostly city driving. A full city tank I can dip to 22-23. On the highway, over 30 most of the time, especially if I can keep it under 70. Highest tank I remember was 835 miles on less than the full 26 gallon tank going to and from Charlotte. And that's with the one of the heaviest curb weight chassis you can get, 5705 of my 6950 GVWR.

Drawbacks so far are small for me. It does not have a manual DPF switch so I have had warnings to get on the highway to burn the filter clean, 30 mph commuting on Atlanta city streets doesn't get it hot enough. I have had 2 limp-mode errors, both early on, and one involved a month in the shop. And the standard 3rd brake light leak kept filling the underseat box with water, fixed on warranty with new under carpet padding. An oil change, like most diesels is costly; think I'm usually around 125 bucks but filters are still only available at the dealership or online in multipacks I always forget to order. And 10k change interval helps a bit but diesel oil is expensive and it takes gallons. Amazon Eco-diesel filters are NOT the right ones usually it seems. And I'm on the 5th fuel filter at 50 bucks and hour of my time.

It does make me laugh to read Autoweek's gushing over the Jag built 3L diesel ending up in the F-150 with the 10 speed. They keep harping on it breaking 30 mpg on the EPA rating. They haven't kept up with the Ram, 2016 and up Rams have a 27 4x4, 29 4x2 rating but keep reporting a 27 EPA rating. Expected to be 30 mpg with the Express HFE if it gets approval for 2018, but the EPA has held up ALL 2018 light-duty diesels from approval so far. And ZF and Aisin both have thoughts about the GM/Ford 10 speed and it is NOT good. ZF made a 10 and Bentley wouldn't buy it, searched for gears all day and cost 50% more. I couldn't imagine the truck searching for more gears and I'm usually at 1250 rpm at 65 as it is, there just isn't power any lower so why hold the engine there or every dip, crest, flinch on the throttle will be a shift.

So long story short, FCA broke some paper rules but none in real life and are still being punished? Do I have that right?

I didn't know you had those issues or I forgot. You bought into the Ecodiesel very early though, correct?

I have not driven the 10 speed yet but I didn't like the ZF paired with the Hemi. Too many gears and it felt like it was constantly hunting on the highway. I better get used to it though as that's probably what I'll be driving in 3-5 years!