Build A New Kent Car - Why Convert?

[diz]

With all the talk recently about converting Zetecs to Kent spec, is anybody thinking about taking the other route?

There are enough smart people out there with great mechanical wherewithal.

Who will be first to design and build their own Kent car from scratch?

I know of people who could probably do this very well, but wouldn't want the financial hassle involved. Maybe a potential converter could channel his efforts / pennies this way instead.

It could be the start of a "new manufacturer business" - particularly if it is a flier

Just a thought and I'm sure some healthy debate will ensue.

[darcym]

Isn't there someone at Brands who built his own car, someone was telling me about it at the festival this year.

If the Formula Ford championship starts to fall to other championships like F BMW then makers like VD or Swift may start to focus on developing cars for kent again.

[spearce]

Dizzy, one of the problems is that the rules say any cars built after '96 must have the bigger cockpits and wide sidepods - so its no longer possible to build a car as slender as say a VD RF90-92. But agree that some of the probs with the 'converted' cars could be sorted with a car designed for the Kent.
I guess it comes down to money - an all new car would probably cost over £20K, not many willing to pay this when there are good RF92's/Reynards/Swifts available for £8K, which are just as quick ???

[Lola]

There have been one or two Kent FF (home built) racing in monoposto over the years.

Highlander ( now in 750 f4)
Phoenix 001 (?)
Phoenix 002 ( in mono spec) (monoposto 2003)
AW1 (on slicks) (mono 2003)
......
It is possible but very time consuming and expensive

[verglas]

alternatively, why not build a 'new' RF90 or a 'new' Swift 92..there must be chasis fabricators out there who would have original drawings etc. and parts are easy enough to find. Surely that would take away the worry of tired chassis and worn suspension parts. I remember many years ago hearing from a 'reliable source' that Van Diemen did not make nearly as many RF82 FF2000 cars that were appearing in the URS pre82 championship in its heyday....makes one wonder does'nt it??.....

[JohnMiller]

Swift will sell you a new chassis if you want. Eg. SC94 is £2,850. You can then buy all new components to make a new car...
Of course this would be outside the rules as the sidepod rules apply to all cars built 1/1/96 on which that would be...

[Stephen Green]

Darcym there was a guy called Johhny Oxborough who used to build his own Kent. From memory it was OX1 then OX2 etc etc etc but guess that was at least 10 years ago???

[verglas]

Jon Oxborrow did indeed build and win with his own FF1600 at Brands. He then went on and built his own 2 seater sports car (OX 4 I think) and won frequently at Lydden in their open sports car series. Have not heard much about him lately though..

[JNWRF01]

Interesting...I thought you can replace the chassis and then rebuild the a car around this for Historic FF (and I am told that historic FF chassis are easy to get hold of) - so why could you not buy a RF90 and rechassis that. If I remember right, did the Eccleston's run "new" chassis in Formula E in the early 90s (Blue Crossle's ??)

[verglas]

John, are we talking about cars BUILT after 96 or DESIGNED after 96. After all if you have a huge shunt and need to replce the chassis.......

[JohnMiller]

No idea. I 'think' the regs say cars built after 31/12/95 which I suppose means you could rechassis a car. Therefore you could later replace everything in a rebuild but still have an old car, a bit like Trigger's broom.

Seems a bit outside the spirit of the rules to build an RF90 etc. from scratch new but, I suppose, if I did that I wouldn't want to fit on some pods.

Back to URS, a year or two ago somebody I know did a rough count and estimated that there are somewhere between 3 and 4 times the number of RF82s in existence as were built back in '82!

[diz]

This thread was meant to cover total new FF1600 Kent designs / builds, so building brand new RF90s etc. isn't where I'm coming from. I doubt there are many earlier FFs left still on their original chassis [or later models come to that], this is Trigger's Broom Syndrome, as mentioned earlier in this thread.
I was thinking along the lines of people willing to spend ££s on Zetec conversions - because they can afford it, when a new design could be far superior as a Kent for not many more ££s. If they can do it for not too exhorbitant a figure and could market it, we could keep FF1600 current with new cars, Zetec mutants [as Dave Fricker refers to them], brand new earlier models and well prepared and driven non chassis up rebuilds bringing FF1600 back to being a "want/need to do formula".

Before I carry on, I must put my two pennyworth in about Formula E, as I was that man!

The Eccleston Crossle 25Fs were not totally brand new, but had a fair proportion of new, or remanufactured parts [e.g. their own version of side radiators - which they supplied to other 25F owners] The main thing they had was untold hours of Roger's time in keeping them looking like brand new.

Chris Kirkbride spent a fair bit by getting John Crossle to build him a brand new 32F

The RP21 used by Rick Morris in the 94 Festival was basically brand new [although after the Formula E days]

Louis Karmios of London Motor Fleet [whatever happened to Louis?] did an update kit for RF80s, which spearce will no doubt comment on. The Ecclestons' did something very similar, although I'm not sure if it was the Louis version, or their own.

Back to the thread

As most current Kent design technology is at least ten years old, surely taking a new look at it should bring improvements into the 21st century.

Personally, I wouldn't have a clue, as I am about as technically minded as they come. Beyond "tyres are black", I'm stumped. However there are many brains out there that I wouldn't mind stimulating.

StephenRae designed and built his own Kent car some years back, but didn't get beyond testing it, although Charles Jordan might have raced it once - I don't remember. I think it is still under a sheet somewhere in North Wales.

[diz]

Originally posted by JohnMiller
Back to URS, a year or two ago somebody I know did a rough count and estimated that there are somewhere between 3 and 4 times the number of RF82s in existence as were built back in '82!

John,
nothing changes. See Andrew Kitson's new thread today on the 1980 Festival and the numerous Festival winning Moreno RF80s that were suddenly for sale. Also the number of FW08 Williams F1 cars about.
Diz

[spearce]

On the subject of 'new, old cars' its very difficult, racing cars often get damaged/repaired - how much of the original has to remain? If its just the chassis plate, then yes you can build a new car to an old design. Normally its not worth the expense, but some people (eg historics) clearly think it is !

[diz]

Originally posted by diz

Louis Karmios of London Motor Fleet [whatever happened to Louis?] did an update kit for RF80s, which spearce will no doubt comment on.

Come Steve, don't let me down

[StephenRae]

Thanks for the mention Diz.............Charles and I raced the "Druid" in 1989, but if you remember we had lashed it up with outboard suspension to make it elligible for formulae E.
It seemed to work well, except that as we hadn't fitted a front roll bar we had either max over or under steer with nothing in between.
I trip over the car often, unfortunately doing the work required to race it again has slipped to about 23 on the project list.

[spearce]

Peter E still has Roger's RF80 which has different bodywork, rads, rear pick up points, etc. has now raced twice - OP and Cadwell last year.

But Ian, surely you are asking why nobody's trying to build all new Kent cars - I think we've already covered it - the 96 on rules and money (cost of a good 90-94 is ~£8K and rel low cost of zetec's).

[spearce]

As far as the design of a 'new' kent is concerned - what could be done ??? The converted zetec's look too big (wheelbase, track and sidepod width) compared to other FF1600's (costing straightline speed). A new kent car could be more compact, but this is constrained by 'post 96' cockpit and sidepod rules. The weight distribution (front/rear) could be refined and maybe the C of G lowered, but overall you would spend a lot of money for little gain.

Also if all the existing FF1600 drivers have to spend £20K to stay competitive - is that a good thing as numbers will drop. So far, the zetec conversions seem about on par, so others don't all feel that they need one too?

[diz]

All good healthy debate. Keep going folks.

[kartingdad]

I know of a manufacturer who is bringing out a new zetec car with kent mountings etc. already built in... Race it as a zetec one weekend, kent the next!

I've seen it so I know its real.

[kartingdad]

Incidentally, anyone else heard the duratec rumour for '05.

Power of a zetec, weight of a kent.

[diz]

Originally posted by kartingdad
I know of a manufacturer who is bringing out a new zetec car with kent mountings etc. already built in... Race it as a zetec one weekend, kent the next!

I've seen it so I know its real.

Andy,

You would have to be swift changing the engines !!!!

The answer is in the clue folks.

Plus, you are as poor as a church mouse - so you keep telling me - so you wouldn't be able to afford both a kent and a zetec motor.
BTW would the hole be bigger in a zetec?

[mattray]

As far as marketing a new car is concerned Darcym, it would have to hit the track winning for people to take notice and want one, and from talking to a manufacturer of VAST experience the first one would be way too heavy and over engineered, so thats year 1 gone. Then the second one would be so light it would be breaking all over the shop, thats year 2 gone, then the 3rd one may start to work but thats 2 years of bad cars for people to try and forget and really whats going to be so amazing design wise that its going to beat a sorted 89/90/92.

There is nothing new in respect to design of formula Ford its all been done and tried, a lot of it depends on who is driving and how much money is spent on testing. What I mean is a bad design can be percieved as good because of a good driver, but the chances of a new manufacturer getting a good driver without paying for him is very small!

[GTRMagic]

Mike Borland of Spectrum Racing Cars in Victoria, Australia is a local maker of Kent-engined cars, and it is the only model of FF they make.

http://www.borlandracing.com/borland.htm

The cars are up to date aerodynamically compared to the current Van Diemens and Mygales raced here.

You are likely looking at something raound A$50k for a rolling chassis without engine

[JNWRF01]

Duratec engines - surely that would involve Ford having some interest/involvement in FF - as they currently have little or none I very much doubt any change from the current Zetec - Kent set up. Hearing that National Zetec is going to be reasonably healthy next season as many of the FBMW hopefuls realise that £140k is a far bit of cash to find in today's economy (to say the least!).