Montoya - should there have been a safety car?

[Cynic]

For those that didn't see it, In Sundays race Montoya spun and beached his car on the apex of the second part of a left-right complex. Rather than deploy a safery car, the Maclaren was snatched under local yellows. Now I understand the theory here - wait a couple of laps so that all the drivers have seen it and then recover - and if it had been anything other than F1 I would say that was the way to go, but even under the local yellows the cars were still going VERY fast, and had anyone else lost it they would probably have smashed straight into the JCB. If I had been the IO on that post I think I would have much preferred a safety car. Anyone else got any thoughts on this?

[White flag man]

Call me a cynic, Cynic,
But it may have had something to do with the fact it was the Spanish Grand Prix and Fernando Alonso had just made his pits stop, while his main rival, Michael Schumacher, had yet to stop. Had they deployed the safety car, no doubt the Ferrari would have pitted while the safety car was out, giving Mr Schumacher a big advantage, and they wouldn't want that would they!
I thought it was great to see the marshals clapping Alonso when he went past. I just wonder if any of them forgot to put out a blue flag to warn backmarkers that a certain red car was approaching, surely not.

[SRPhoto]

Originally Posted by White flag man

Call me a cynic, Cynic,
But it may have had something to do with the fact it was the Spanish Grand Prix and Fernando Alonso had just made his pits stop, while his main rival, Michael Schumacher, had yet to stop. Had they deployed the safety car, no doubt the Ferrari would have pitted while the safety car was out, giving Mr Schumacher a big advantage, and they wouldn't want that would they!

Must admit I thought exactly the same. Don't think I would have gone out to it where it was without a safety car. It may have looked safer in real life but I doubt it!

[shjo558]

Originally Posted by White flag man

Call me a cynic, Cynic,
But it may have had something to do with the fact it was the Spanish Grand Prix and Fernando Alonso had just made his pits stop, while his main rival, Michael Schumacher, had yet to stop. Had they deployed the safety car, no doubt the Ferrari would have pitted while the safety car was out, giving Mr Schumacher a big advantage, and they wouldn't want that would they!
I thought it was great to see the marshals clapping Alonso when he went past. I just wonder if any of them forgot to put out a blue flag to warn backmarkers that a certain red car was approaching, surely not.

Wow, and I thought I was the only one who was thinking that! I am pleased that they decided to recover under waved yellows just to stop Schumi winning ,but there is no way I would have been out there recovering that car.

[CombeMarshal]

To me it was a no brainer, and I thought the say as White Flag Man, Guess we could have a cynic club starting up here!

[happyhammer]

Unfortunately I did not see the race live, but I still winced watching the highlights. I guess there might have been the thought that the marshals could dive behind the jcb thingiemejig in an emergency, but not all of the marshals were in a position to do so. Mr. Blundell seems to have changed his tune from last season when he was demanding marshals run out in the middle of a live race track.

Maybe it is because I am still a n00b, but had I been on this post frankly I would not have gone to recover the car. Perhaps if drivers did slow right down and were prepared to stop then I would go to this incident without a safetycar, but I haven't really seen many drivers do this for a yellow unless their path is actually blocked.

[/wuss]

[James Elder]

From what the TV did show, a safety car was pretty obvious in this case. Admittedly the marshals got the car cleared in good time, but looking at them and the rest of the field going past it was obvious none were really slowing down - and the body language of the marshals looked pretty wary towards that. Had anyone lost it they could have hit the JCB, or Montoya's car or even the marshals - and we don't want that on live TV.

[jcbsrule]

yellows mean slow down

i have done snatch's like that, but i use the fend off to protect hooker,

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by jcbsrule

yellows mean slow down

i have done snatch's like that, but i use the fend off to protect hooker,

Were talking F1 here, they don't know slow down!!

[jcbsrule]

the rules apply to ff 1600 all the way up to the gods in F1 If they hit my JCB its there tough luck

[rcarr]

Much like the Alonso passing under yellow flags and not getting a penalty this incident was also a bit off!

It would have made the race more exciting if fernando had a stop-go or drive through or the safety car had come out! We would have seen more tactics and driver ability shining through like it did at Nurburg and Imola!

Id rather see the look of disbelief on Alonso's face again than a Renault blasting through to take an easy win! Like what happened!

If they did put out a safety car or gave him a stop/go penalty, there would have been a riot! That would have been great to watch too!

[shjo558]

[QUOTE=rcarr]Much like the Alonso passing under yellow flags and not getting a penalty this incident was also a bit off!


Well, I see what your mean, but technically Alonso didn't overtake as much as the car in front kinda stopped. Can you be penalised for being forced into lapping someone?

I do like Alonso.....

I couldn't be an observer, would never remain impartial!

[CombeMarshal]

[QUOTE=shjo558]

Originally Posted by rcarr

Much like the Alonso passing under yellow flags and not getting a penalty this incident was also a bit off!


Well, I see what your mean, but technically Alonso didn't overtake as much as the car in front kinda stopped. Can you be penalised for being forced into lapping someone?

I do like Alonso.....

I couldn't be an observer, would never remain impartial!

Yeah, Alonso's Move looked rather Force Magour (however you spell it!)

[BrendanM]

With a nice JCB to hide behind I may have gone out to hook up
Charlie is normaly pretty level headed and from memory there were a couple of laps for folk to see what was what before any kit moved. Probably a little debate along the lines of "well you come down here and get it then!" :-)

[The STIG]

Hmmm. an interesting experiment. F1 car vs JCB...

ahem!

I was amazed that a saftey car wasn't deployed for that situation, I wouldn't have gone out to it!

now if it was Schumacher instead of Montoya he would have stayed in the car and tryed to get the marshals to push him... Wonder what Alonso would have done

[Hepatic]

have to say from what we saw on TV, the marshals did a fantastic job under the circumstances, but i don't think they should have been asked to do it in the way they did. The CoC is the same for every F1 race, so no Spanish favourtism should have been involved. There was at least one car that was (possibly Heidfeld) still going full pelt through that corner, and almost lost it himself. Even in a formula ford race i'd expect that to have been stopped (no saftey car) rather than recover it via local yellows.

Everything went fine in the end, but we all know it doesn't go like that all the time and why increase the risks?

[ceanndubhain]

I saw the race and was suprised there wasn't a safety car.

If Alonso had not been leading and roles were reversed with Schumi it may well have come out. Not being cynical or anything. I suppose we'll never know.

[Woolley]

Having just caught it on highlights, I was surprised not to see a Safety Car, but on the other hand, that's how it always used to be done quite safely because the drivers used to slow sufficiently. It's hard to tell how much is slower in F1, but so long as they can guarantee to retain control and give the marshals space and security, then there's no real need for it in many situations. Perhaps if drivers can be re-educated - and F1 is the best place to start - to behave properly under yellows we can do away with all these Safety Cars and the additional problems they cause.

Doesn't mean I didn't wince to see it happen that way, but if safety can once more be guaranteed in these situations, then it's a much better way. It would help if FIA would reintroduce proper flag signals, of course.

[happyhammer]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Having just caught it on highlights, I was surprised not to see a Safety Car, but on the other hand, that's how it always used to be done quite safely because the drivers used to slow sufficiently. It's hard to tell how much is slower in F1, but so long as they can guarantee to retain control and give the marshals space and security, then there's no real need for it in many situations. Perhaps if drivers can be re-educated - and F1 is the best place to start - to behave properly under yellows we can do away with all these Safety Cars and the additional problems they cause.

I agree with this. If the drivers were to noticeably slow down - and race control can look at the lap times to check - then perhaps we could have less SC time. True the camera can distort make a car look like it is going faster than it actually is, but the cars still didn't seem to slow that much.

[the.cosmic.pope]

Watching the live timing at the same time, very few cars actually slowed down by a significant ammount, which IMO is unacceptable.

We have had safety cars for much less dangerous stuff, and IMO, that should have been an SC judding on previous stuff.

[JABWOA]

Looks like I'm alone on this one then, thought it was well handled (except for the drivers) and didn't require an SC period. TV tends to distort distances too and the camera angle certainly made it look like they were driving right at the recovery. What we don't know is what the drivers were doing in the car as they went past, ie- still running ten-tenths or only 80%. Still damn quick, but margin of risk greatly reduced. (BTW- the CofC is local for each race, the race director attends every event. Who gets to say what and when, that I don't know as down under, the director overides the CofC despite the CofC holding the ultimate responsabilty.)

[Cynic]

Call me a cynic, Cynic,
But it may have had something to do with the fact it was the Spanish Grand Prix and Fernando Alonso had just made his pits stop, while his main rival, Michael Schumacher, had yet to stop.

I hadn't thought of that angle. Must be losing my touch...

[garybirch]

I think in some respects we need to be more cautious in F1 as their 'slow under yellows' is about the same as full throttle for the majority of the series' we all marshal for at club level!
SC should have been out in my humble opinion and all credit to the marshals who did a great job when they shouldn't have been asked to do so.

[TwoSheds]

I was surprised that the SC wasn't deployed, but having said that, having given all the drivers (and teams) a lap or two to see the situation I thought it was okay to snatch using the JCB. Not criticising the marshals there, but I did think there were too many of them attending the recovery. Just needed JCB driver, a hooker and maybe one other to help steady the car. Just my 2p worth.

[numbersix]

We're making the assumption that a SC makes it safer for marshals. I've had several instances where our team's safety was compromised by idiot back-markers racing like hell to catch up with the train.