Revealing contrast to Reynard/Lola/Dallara/G-Force kit prices

[Franklin]

(See www.viper-aircraft.com)

"So What's It Going to Cost?

ViperJet™ Kit Pricing:

Kit A: Fuselage, Vertical Stab, Rudder, Horizontal Stab, Elevators &
Associated Hardware. $57,900
Kit B: Wings, Spars, Ailerons, Flaps, Landing Gear & Associated
Hardware. $49,400
Kit C: Canopy, Latches, Seats, Quadrants & other finishing
hardware .$27,600

Total cost of ViperJet Kit:$134,900

Deposit Required: A 10% deposit is required ($13,490) to hold a serial
number position for a ViperJet™ kit. This deposit is applied against
total price or to last sub kit C.

Note: This introductory price will be for the first 10 ViperJet Kits
only.

Note** The ViperJet™ kit comes with our “Excel Build”™ Option standard,
which will save over 800 hours of build time.

Excel Build Airframe include the following:
Jigged fuselage, Fuselage bulkheads installed, vertical spars installed,
one side vertical skin installed, vertical stab ribs installed, Top
fuselage skins bonded, spar box installed, Wing spars bonded, wing ribs
installed, horizontal stab spars bonded, horizontal stab ribs installed,
ailerons closed, flaps closed, rudder closed, elevators closed.

All ViperJet™ structural airframe components are manufactured with
carbon fiber materials.

For further information call Viper Aircraft Corporation"

[Crash Test]

Ahhh....care factor?

Did you know that a cheeseburger at McDonalds costs $1.15, yet there is only about 10 cents of beef, 2 cents of cheese, 4 cents of bread, 1/2 a cent of sauce, 7 cents of labour. What a rip off!! But if i want to eat a cheeseburger i've got to dish out $1.15....If i wanted to go home and eat bread covered in grass and dipped in toilet water, it would probably cost me 3 cents...

If i want to buy a Reynard, i have to pay $Xmillion, and if i want to buy a rocket plane, i have to spend $X thousand....

[Franklin]

A wise (or at least thoughtful) person might ask these questions.

1. What is it the kit plane manufacturers are doing that allows them to deliver a lot more hardware for a lot less money?
2. How can those techniques be applied to CART and IRL cars?
3. How is $400,000 for a freaking kit car good for racing?

[jms]

same **** , different forum.

[Crash Test]

I'd like to see someone build build any open wheel car, with the exception of formula vees or backyard specials on a budget of $27,000. It just doesn't happen that way. Why should we be worried about costs? The only time we should be is if the classes were struggling to have competitors. Now correct me if i am wrong, but a field of 25-27 cars is ample and of those teams most of them are serious, and aren't lacking budgets. You wouldn't want to have 100 competitors; imagine the transport costs for the races in Australia, Japan, Brazil...they would be huge....

[enzo]

Frankie just needs an audience - he must be real lonely. He's posted this same topic in at least 4 different places ( maybe more), and either no one wants to play with him, or they show him where he's wrong. Unfortunately, it's all to no avail, as he just moves on to another site. Too bad - he actually seems to be fairly well read, and has a good imagination.

I've got to admit - his flameouts against people that don't agree with him are really amusing to see.

[Crash Test]

And then theres the arguements from the tech forums:
1. How many pieces in a champ car?
2. How much technology in a champ car?
3. How many are made compared to planes?
4. Aren't the chassis primarily put together at the car factory, and the teams receive the cars as a roller? If each team had to glue their kit together it would take centuries...

[Franklin]

"same ****, different forum." Oh yeah, now THERE'S a response that had a huge amount of thought put into it.

And the total price of the Viper kit is not $27,000. It's $134,000.

[Franklin]

Like the Reynard, Lola, Dallara, and G-Force KITS the Viper KIT does not come with an engine. But for only about HALF the price of even a Dallara or G-Force kit, the Viper kit delivers more hardware.

"Kit A: Fuselage, Vertical Stab, Rudder, Horizontal Stab, Elevators &
Associated Hardware. $57,900
Kit B: Wings, Spars, Ailerons, Flaps, Landing Gear & Associated Hardware. $49,400
Kit C: Canopy, Latches, Seats, Quadrants & other finishing hardware. $27,600"

[Crash Test]

"Oh yeah, now THERE'S a response that had a huge amount of thought put into it."
- Ummm ahhhh...... Well your post does seem to be an exact copy of the one in the tech forum. I think if someone is lacking thought it might well be you?

"And the total price of the Viper kit is not $27,000. It's $134,000."
- Thats nice, i know i'll sleep well tonite.

"Like the Reynard, Lola, Dallara, and G-Force KITS the Viper KIT does not come with an engine. But for only about HALF the price of even a Dallara or G-Force kit, the Viper kit delivers more hardware.
"Kit A: Fuselage, Vertical Stab, Rudder, Horizontal Stab, Elevators &
Associated Hardware. $57,900
Kit B: Wings, Spars, Ailerons, Flaps, Landing Gear & Associated Hardware. $49,400
Kit C: Canopy, Latches, Seats, Quadrants & other finishing hardware. $27,600""
-Q. Well why dont teams race them at Indy?
A. They are aeroplanes.

Q.How many are made compared to planes?

Q.Are teams struggling to pay their bills?

Q.What are Reynards figures on number of employees etc?

Q.Which has more ongoing R&D?

Q.Which has more exotic materials?

[TimD]

At the risk of getting involved in a squabble, may I make an observation?

I looked at the Viper site (although the link at the top of this page seems not to work - I Yahoo'd)

It's a good looking aircraft, and I wasn't expecting it to be a jet. I'm impressed.

However, it is by nature and design a sports/recreational machine, and cannot be compared to an oval race car. If we are looking for comparisons to machines being raced at Indy, for example, then it seems more appropriate to look at the machines being raced at - say - Reno Air Races, which are the pinnacle of the sports aviation calendar.

There is no racing class, according to Reno's site, for a Viper-type sports jet.

Although I'll concede it would be a heck of a spectacle.

But what is used as the pinnacle of air racing? The P-51 Mustang fighter, average sale price approx. $1.2 mill. If a Reynard/Lola/G-Force/Dallara is used for the cream of US motor sport, I suggest they are starting to look more like bargains every second.

But I'd still like a Viper. In the same way as I would want an Aston Martin living in the garage next to the hangar.

[Franklin]

Reno is a good point.

That's where Formula One teams such as Nemesis are managing to build and race their own all-carbon-fiber one-of-a-kind near-300 mph racing planes on multi-hundred thousand dollar budgets (and that estimate may be high) instead of multi-million dollar budgets.

[Crash Test]

Frankie: ya didnt seem to answer any questions there..

[Franklin]

Which question did this not answer? "That's where Formula One teams such as Nemesis are managing to build and
race their own all-carbon-fiber one-of-a-kind near-300 mph racing planes
on multi-hundred thousand dollar budgets (and that estimate may be high)
instead of multi-million dollar budgets."

[Crash Test]

You cant compare Cart to Nascar -apples and oranges
You cant compare cars to planes -apples and oranges
You cant compare cars to boats -apples and oranges
You cant compare boats to planes -apples and oranges
You can sit there and say one accelerates at such a rate, and the other at a different rate, and thats fantastic. But the prices aren't relevant because they are different beasts.
anyways, have at go at these:Q.How many are made compared to planes?

Q.Are teams struggling to pay their bills?

Q.What are Reynards figures on number of employees etc?

Q.Which has more ongoing R&D?

Q.Which has more exotic materials?

[enzo]

Frankie just loves to make broad, sweeping, insane statements, and has absolutely no intention of ever providing any real data to back them up. Expecting a factual discussion from him is a pipe dream - it ain't gonna happen ! The best way to get him to go way is to ignore him. No audience, no Frankie !

[Franklin]

"You cant compare Cart to Nascar -apples and oranges
You cant compare cars to planes -apples and oranges
You cant compare cars to boats -apples and oranges
You cant compare boats to planes -apples and oranges"

Why can't I compare CART to NASCAR? Tim Richmond ran his Winston Cup car with a 50/50 weight distribution because that's what he was used to from open wheel racing. Both CART Champ cars and NASCAR Winston Cup cars are cars aren't they? They both have a center of gravity don't they? They both have a roll center don't they? They both develop downforce don't they?

In most aerodynamics textbooks, both cars and boats are not even classified as either a land vehicle or a water vehicle. They're both classified as interface vehicles -- i.e., vehicles that are operated at the air/surface interface.

Carbon fiber layed up over a core material such as nomex honeycomb or PVC foam doesn't know whether it's in a boat, a car, or an airplane. The only variables are the number of plies, the orientation of the fibers, and the thickness of the core material.

[Crash Test]

Ok, so you can go off and compare some tech tid bits, but just from experience around this BB you can't go off comparing drivers, how hard they are to drive, which is harder to set up etc etc..

And you still seemed to find a way to dodge them questions..,.

[enzo]

Lets see - using Frankies logic we can give some direct comparisons in other areas :

1 - A Saturn V rocket & an Estes. They're both rockets, right ?

2 - An F15 & a Piper Cub. They both have wings, don't they ?

3- An America's Cup boat & a Sailfish. They both float on water & have sails, right ?

4 - Or how about an H-bomb and a Cherry bomb. They both go "BOOM" don't they ?

By the way- road racing cars are rarely to never set up at 50/50 weight distribution unless the rules dictate the same sized tires front & rear. Weight split is usually closer to 45/55 to 48/52.

Maybe the best comparison would be Frankies head and a jar of air with the lid loose...........

[Franklin]

"By the way- road racing cars are rarely to never set up at 50/50 weight
distribution unless the rules dictate the same sized tires front & rear.
Weight split is usually closer to 45/55 to 48/52."

That might have had some small degree of relevancy IF I HAD BEEN TALKING ABOUT ROAD RACING CARS, but I was pointing out how Tim Richmond had applied his open wheel circle track experience to his Winston Cup car.

[enzo]

Wrong again, Lizard Breath. Your post only stated "open wheel experience", without the specifier "circle track". As he raced both go-carts & Indy cars, as well as sprinters & modifieds, rr cars were automatically included in that statement. Still not sure how you came up with the 50/50 statment, as sprinters & modifieds are usually 60/40 distribution.

Irregardless, you are still comparing apples & oranges. How 'bout answering Crashes questions ? Or are you going to dodge them also ?

Time to tighten that lid a turn......

[floid2000]

Tim Richmond ?..............................
How did he get involved in this ? Did he race airplanes ? Is Reno REALLY the "Biggest little city in the world"
Is that really Elian or is it a commie imposter?
I get it........OK
If Tim Richmond had $17,428 dollars worth of toys as a kid (taking in inflation) Is it fair that Elian only has $11,253 worth of toys? I don't think so....DISCUSS

[Franklin]

I said 50/50 because Harry Hyde said 50/50. You do know who Harry Hyde is, don't you? Dipstick.