Historic Racing Drivers

[John Turner]

This is my first effort at anything on this website and it maybe that you have discussed this topic before. However, I would be interested in your views on who you consider the best of the drivers of historic cars since this type of racing got really underway.

For my own list I have avoided the obvious choices like Gerry Marshall, Frank Sytner, 'Whizzo' Williams & Win Percy, because these have been consistent professional drivers over the years. The best in my view is/was Willie Green, closely followed by Neil Corner, Martin Stretton, Peter Hardman and the Hon. Patrick Lindsay. Yes, I know Willie did contemporary racing in the 60's but for me over the years he has been peerless in historics and I think I have just given my age away, as well.

Let's hear from you.

[Andrew Kitson]

Welcome to the forum John!
There are some seriously quick drivers in historic racing these days and all of the above that you mention fall into this category.
How about Gary Pearson?- very fast.
There are also a number of young guns who race or have raced cars built way before their time - such as Justin Law, Nathan Kinch and Alan van der Merwe - (when his father ( Bruce) lets him drive his Chevron B21).
In my opinion, the best thing to have happened to British motorsport for years is the growth of historic / vintage racing - particularly the Goodwood Revival where we can see these historic drivers ( and cars) at their best.

[Joe Twyman]

Duncan Dayton is very fast in TGP, as are most of the front runners in that series. Yes he does have experience in modern prototypes etc, so if we are talking, real amature racers then Rod Jolley. He often outpaces later formula 1 machinery in his T45/51 in HGPCA events. At Goodwood in 2001, he started at the back of the grid with a 10 second penalty, and won. There are a number of other very quick drivers in the HGPCA, John Harper, John Beasley etc etc

[Andrew Kitson]

Welcome to you too Joe. Yes Rod Jolley - I remember that race. It was as if the red mist had taken over.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by John Turner
The best in my view is/was Willie Green.....

I'm sure Willie would be delighted to hear this, as will 10/10ths member Stoffer Green. I spent a delightful weekend in their (and Whizzo's) company for the Le Mans Classic last year.....

Name-dropping it may be, but as it happens, Rod Jolley is a very old friend of my wife and has his workshops about 5 minutes down the road from where I live........

[Joe Twyman]

Rod was very annoyed at the circumstances under which he was sent to the back of the grid. He had passed someone under yellows in practice and was out to prove a point! (or so i remember)

My father races a Cooper, and comparing times, the cars at the front now are lapping Goodwood quicker than Moss and Brabham did in '59/'60. Ok, so maybe the surface of the track is better etc..but it just proves your point on how these guys are genuinely quick!

[John Turner]

Yes, all the driver's you have both mentioned are superb and it's great to see the young guns like Law and Kinch developing their craft in the old cars. Gary Pearson, fabulous in the Lister did rather blot his copybook for me, when he crashed Project 212 in practice at the Goodwood Revival after Martin Brundle had put the car on pole by 1.5 seconds for the TT Race in 1999. I do so want to see a Project Aston win that race, and 212 is the best bet in the right hands!

I agree the historic scene has been excellent in recent years.

[Andrew Kitson]

And of course there is Simon Hadfield. Very quick in 70s historic single seaters such as F2 / F5000.

[Peter Mallett]

Well I agree with all of the above but there are those who race historics but never get the credit they deserve because sometimes they don't race in those "special" events.

I give you Barry "Sideways" Smith, who can make an ordinary MGB perform beyond its limits on a regular basis. Joe Ward and Chris Connolly in TVRs and Triumphs. Then there's Alan Lloyd who RACES a GT40 amongst other things.

In the CTCRC there are racers who get very little praise but still produce outstanding performances. Nigel Garrett, Leo Voyazades to name two. OK they race a Camaro and Mustang respectively but they do it to great effect. Or what about Skid Scarborough?

This is not to say that Whizzo or Gerry or the others mentioned are not worthy of their reputations indeed Gerry and I have shared a beer or two but it's to illustrate that the depth in Classic and Historic racing is greater than some would think.

Oh and a warm welcome to John and Joe.

[simon drabble]

To follow on from that there are two classes to consider the professional historic racer like Martin Stretton, Whizzo etc and the geniune club historic racer. This could as with contemporary racing be sub divided into saloons single seaters etc.
In the professional category Sytner must be up there as one of the best allrounders.

[Peter Mallett]

Quite right Simon. There is also the tendency to look towards the more exotic machinery like the Intersports.

The old coys meeting had the great GT categories and there you would see all kinds of machinery from Lotus to Aston GT4 Zagato. I particularly remeber a silver 250 GT SWB being driven with extreme verve by an American Gent whose name escapes me.

Yet the humble MGB was also a joy to watch as the drivers oversteered through any corner they came to.

[Mackmot]

What about Mike Whatley, he is a quality driver. In his Ensign N175 he manages to beat guys in ground effect 80's cars.

I also like to see Martin Stretton race, being my age I would never have got the opportunity to see a P34 fly down Paddock Hill if he wasn't around.

[simon drabble]

Peter you are right people like Barry Sideways are great club racers. I saw him on Saturday at Julius' day at Goodwood and am pleased to see that he has made a full recovery and that his car is making one.
The question could be changed to
who would you want to co drive your racecar, so speed is important but so is the ability to bring it back in one piece! I do a fair number of 2 driver races and this is always in the back of your mind as you dont wont to see your car bent by someone else (as has happened to me but to be fair it wasnt the drivers fault).

[Peter Mallett]

Haven't seen Barry for over a year now due to geography. He's the one that got me back behind the wheel in '92. He also sold me my MGB which I've still got (albeit it needs a new engine now).

It's because of him that I get to race at Spa.

Glad he's on the mend.

As to co-drivers I would again point you at the CTCRC. (I suspect you have equals in the HSCC). Tim Clarke usually teams with me and we are pretty much of a similar pace (pleasing really because he's about twenty years younger than me but considered quick). Then there's Skid who I'd love to put in my car (if only he'd tell me what is different to his version). I can keep up with him in the wet but in a dry race he's gone.

I'd also like to put Whizzo in the car just because he's a top bloke.

Hmm. I'm getting some ideas for Spa in September now. Three races and two are one-hour I believe.

[simon drabble]

Most of us have Barry to thank for our trips to Spa! I agree abt your comments re HSCC/CTCRC. It will be interesting to see if we see any consolidation there especially in pre 65 saloons as HSCC/HRSR specs become more FIA compliant with oversized engines being phased out,

another name missed off the rollcall is Tony Dron, if only to prove that tall men can still be winners!

[John Turner]

Many thanks for the welcome and the response from all of you. Between us we have contributed at least 25 names and with all those un-named less well known drivers it confirms the view some of you have expressed over the strength in depth of Historic Racing. We haven't even mentioned the famous professional racing drivers from the past who still compete; or those from other areas of entertainment, like Nick Mason, who gave Frank Sytner a great run for his money in his GTO, at Silverstone a few years back and Rowan Atkinson, who drove a particularly fine race at Goodwood in the wet in his DB2. We haven't mentioned Neil Corner's son, Nigel, who was always quick in the Dino and, for a while had almost a monopoly on the pre 66 GT races sharing his lightweight E-type with Mark Hales (another one!). Then there is Frank Sytner's 'thorn in the side', Robert Brooks; and what about our Tiff, who on his occasional outings in the Lister Jag is pretty spectacular? Then there's Jeremy Agace, and so the list goes on.

I have been going to motor race meetings since 1966 when I first attended the AMOC St John Horsfall. Notwithstanding all the fine drivers mentioned, Willie green remains my top choice in Historic racing for his sheer competitiveness, great car control and skill in so many different cars over many years. If you had to pick just one driver in this class of motor racing who would you go for?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by John Turner
.... If you had to pick just one driver in this class of motor racing who would you go for?

And there you have the problem. Because there are so many facets and, as far as I'm concerned, I know so many of them I would find it difficult to pin down one particular driver.

For my money they all provide entertainment and in some cases competition to me. And long may they continue to do so.

[simon drabble]

Although an ex professional driver I think it has to be Frank Sytner. He is consistently on the podium, proving if you have the talent and the budget you should do well!

[TimD]

Yes but... Julian Bronson, Dudley Mason-Styrron, John Harper, Stuart Graham and James Shead all have very good reason to query some of Frank's touring car tactics. Banging the doorhandles of a works BMW M3 is one thing, doing it with a priceless historic sports car is quite another. I'm not saying that everyone I've mentioned is blameless in all the times Frank's come home with panel damage, but the fact that it happens so often to Frank makes me start looking for the book of quotes by Oscar Wilde.

[gfm]

I've worked with Martin Stretton in the past. If I had a seat that needed filling right now, in a histerical race winning motor, you'd find it hard to beat his technical appreciation and speed. Really nice guy too, team player and not big - worth 10 bhp!

[TimD]

Oh, my suggestions? How about Roger Collings with his 1903 Mercedes 60, Brian Stevens (another case of a good budget helping admittedly) with his superquick Jaguar XJ S, Julian Majzub, who seems to be able to turn his hand to any class of vintage racing car and do it well, and Peter Morley who is still the only person who has really been able to tame the brutal Napier Bentley.

How about Hamish Moffatt in the Bugatti T35, or Paul Jaye, who always makes his Alta go faster than it really ought, or poor Anthony Mayman who was the first person since Raymond Mays to make ERA R4D work properly. Barrie Clarke, maybe, whose Austin 7 just goes and goes and goes, or Richard Pilkington for his work with the Talbot Lago?

But my vote would have to go to "Supermouse" Martin Stretton, for his performances in the eighties with the chain-driven Frazer Nash Super Sports, more recently in the Tyrrell P34 6-wheeler and 005, but most of all for his mid 1990s drives in the ex-Whitney Straight (I think) Maserati 4CM, which still doesn't seem to go quite as well now as it did when he was conducting it.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by gfm
If I had a seat that needed filling right now, in a histerical race winning motor......

After listening to many of Whizzo Williams jokes over the weekend last September - I think he should take up your histerical race seat......

[simon drabble]

Tim you are absolutely right that Mr Sytner does carry a certain reputation but he is effective in 50's sportscars and probably will be in the new 60's sportscars series due to start at Donnington May 3/5. Martin Stretton certainly in 70/80s single seaters. Gerry Marshall in saloons?

So what is the best car for each series? Cooper Monaco or Lister Jaguar for 50's Sportscars? Lotus Cortina or Mustang or Alfa GTA for Appendix k Saloons?

[PaulSands]

Frank Sytner is pretty effective in his Brabham F1 too from the results I've seen.
He's a very good all round racer. It's probably a little unfair to discount him because he was an "ex professional". Only for brief period (mid 80's BMW M3) could he may have been considered a pro. He does however have a wealth a club racing experience which probably makes him seem like a pro.
I am little biased as I was his pit board boy in his in 77 & 78 for his FF2000 & Sports 2000 campaigns

[John Turner]

Frank Sytner has been getting a lot of mentions but I would have to go with Tim and Simon because he does occasionally cross that line between 'hard but fair' and 'over robust' if I can use that term. I would certainly class him as an ex. pro; he was 1988 BTCC Champion and seemed to fall out with most of his team mates. Greta car control and definitely entertaining though! I suppose if I had not been watching motor racing and therefore Willie Green for so long and hadn't known what went before, I would have to go with John M's choice and pick Martin Stretton. Talking of these two, can anyone explain how Willie in Alfetta could beat Martin in the Maserati in the wet, at Coys, Silverstone and then get beaten by Martin the following day in the dry? Given the age, design and power of the respective cars, I would have thought the results would have been the other way round. Clearly, I must be missing something really obvious, and yes, I know Willie is brilliant in the wet, but there must be more to it than that. Please tell me!