Indy 500 - an irrelevance?

[ss_collins]

Indy used to be a absolute institution, a challenge, attracting cars and drivers from all over the world (well england at least). Crazy specials fought to get on the grid and qualifying was a real spectacle.

But today I look at the top five speeds and they were all set by effectivley the same car, the 33 car grid was more than twice oversubscribed and now they struggle to fill it.

So is the Indy 500 now an irrelevance - in Europe its image is really tarnished now

[Seoigh]

'Valid observation.

Irrelevant even in the US...and 'Indy's' image wasn't helped by the 2005 F1 debacle, either.

The merger could change that, but it will take time.

[rustyfan]

An irrelevance? Hardly. It remains one of the oldest races in the world, and the challenge is still there, to be faster than everyone else, to keep your car in one piece and to keep it off the unforgiving walls for 500 miles. These days it also remains as one of the last true endurance tests in open-wheel racing. Obviously it's not like it used to be, but "an irrelevance"? To the naysayers, perhaps.

Also, you might want to look up your info when it comes to "struggling to fill 33 spots", as there should be several cars bumped from the field this year. Not to mention the starting grid overall will be stronger than it has been for quite a few years, and we should be in for one heckuva fight between primarily Penske, Ganassi and Andretti-Green this year.

As for the F1-fiasco at Indy last year, it didn't hurt Indy a whole lot. It did, however, badly hurt Formula 1's reputation in the US.

[climb]

well spotted rusty!

Ok Indy is different from what it was 15 yrs ago, and so what?
Is F1 the same of Gilles' times?

Having the same chassis configurations should guarantee a more even competition, and this year the package is one of the richest ever.

Every racing formula is gradually shifting to monomake solutions (except for F1, which is nonetheless diminishing the technical competition) there must be some good reasons (beyond cost saving which is the first one!); maybe things will change in a decade, maybe but it's not essential to define the status of a race.

[Audi R8R]

Except the problem Indy has at the minute (and has for the last few years) is that people on both sides of the Atlantic know that there are at least a dozen drivers who should be on the grid fighting it out for what is still argueably one of the top trophies and prizes in motorsport, but aren't. All because of politics and contracts...

When you get the top level guys from Champ Car racing as well as the top draw boys from F1 having a cut too, then it would truly once again be the crown jewel of all motorsports in the year.

It shouldn't take much to do, but it will never happen. Motorsport eh? Too much business and not enough sport any more.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Audi R8R

Except the problem Indy has at the minute (and has for the last few years) is that people on both sides of the Atlantic know that there are at least a dozen drivers who should be on the grid fighting it out for what is still argueably one of the top trophies and prizes in motorsport, but aren't. All because of politics and contracts...

When you get the top level guys from Champ Car racing

If common sense prevails and the merger does happen, the Champ Car drivers will be back soon enough.

Originally Posted by Audi R8R

as well as the top draw boys from F1 having a cut too, then it would truly once again be the crown jewel of all motorsports in the year.

Not sure how this makes a difference - when was the last time an active Formula 1 driver raced in the Indianapolis 500 anyway? Some time in the 80's? In other words the Indianapolis 500, in your opinion, must've lost its status as a crown jewel race a long time ago.

[climb]

Originally Posted by Audi R8R

Except the problem Indy has at the minute (and has for the last few years) is that people on both sides of the Atlantic know that there are at least a dozen drivers who should be on the grid fighting it out for what is still argueably one of the top trophies and prizes in motorsport, but aren't. All because of politics and contracts...

...

Yes, but, is F1 that different?

[ss_collins]

Mansell the last active F1 driver I think.

But look at Le Mans (about as far from monomake as you can get) loads of different ways to try to achieve the same thing and attracting a great crop of drivers. Something Indy does not do.

F1 has 22 teams wanting to play - thats 44 cars, Le Mans has 70- odd. One make series are never seen as top class.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Mansell the last active F1 driver I think.

Nigel Mansell quit Formula 1 and raced full-time in IndyCar between 1993 and 1994. So no, he was not an active Formula 1 driver at the time of his two appearences in the Indianapolis 500.

Originally Posted by ss_collins

But look at Le Mans (about as far from monomake as you can get) loads of different ways to try to achieve the same thing and attracting a great crop of drivers. Something Indy does not do.

I don't see any Formula 1 drivers taking part in the Le Mans 24 Hours though.

[Nick49]

Hello

Every series has its ups and downs but the test of the Indy 500 will always be there. I'm sure in 1992 the same thoughts were going through peoples heads when only 29 cars started the Le Mans 24 Hours. Times change. In my opinion the top three motorsport events in "Jo Public's" head are Le Mans, Indy 500 and Monaco GP and its only us petrol heads who debate the nuances.

Nick

[mountainstar]

indy has taken on the appearance of a county fair. Saw a picture of opening day with nothing but a few hundred people in the stand and bare aluminum everywhere was so sad it's funny. It's not even the richest motor race in the world anymore, the purse has stayed almost exactly the same for 15 years and was long surpassed by daytona's $18 million purse.

The field is filling out, but that's only because an excess of equipment is lying around from bankrupt teams and people are doing cut rate deals for this one race. Certainly not a spectacle worth turning up to see.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

indy has taken on the appearance of a county fair. Saw a picture of opening day with nothing but a few hundred people in the stand and bare aluminum everywhere was so sad it's funny.

I'm pretty sure rookie orientation/refresher testing didn't mark the official opening day in the past though.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

It's not even the richest motor race in the world anymore, the purse has stayed almost exactly the same for 15 years and was long surpassed by daytona's $18 million purse.

In 1990 the total purse was $6,325,803, while in 2005 it was $10,304,815. Yep, you're totally right - it hasn't increased one bit in the past 15 years.

As for Daytona it's no wonder they have been able to pour money into the purse there, seeing how NASCAR haven't had to deal with all the BS politics and moronic fighting north-american open-wheel racing has had to endure the past 10 years. But I guess those CART head honchos who wanted to lessen the importance of the Indy 500, which in turn made TG make the extremely bad and stupid decision to demand control and then walk off with the race, knew what they were doing eh?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

In 1990 the total purse was $6,325,803, while in 2005 it was $10,304,815. Yep, you're totally right - it hasn't increased one bit in the past 15 years.

I'm not saying this to support or disprove anything, but what has US inflation done between 1990 and 2005? Those two figures could be similar. Anyway as you were...

[ss_collins]

Its seems the US guys agree

check out the auto ad - it seems to agree with me too

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Its seems the US guys agree

So you're letting one of the biggest IndyCar-haters on this forum speak for all Americans? That's cool, I guess.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

So you're letting one of the biggest IndyCar-haters on this forum speak for all Americans? That's cool, I guess.

If you're pointing at me, I'll wear that as a badge of honor.

As far as I remembered the purse in 1991 was around the $7.5 mark and was only just about $8 mil last year. If it had increased to $10 mil, I was unaware of that.

If one looks at the facts objectively, no one can possibly argue the race is what is was over 10 years ago. It's barely a footnote in american sports anymore. Remember the 500 used to be like the super bowl and you could barely get tickets. It used to be exciting and interesting. It is not anymore. It's amazing to think back in 1994 I actually used to look forward to it.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

As far as I remembered the purse in 1991 was around the $7.5 mark and was only just about $8 mil last year. If it had increased to $10 mil, I was unaware of that.

It's the official numbers off the Indy 500 website. The total purse for the Indy 500 has been over $10 million since 2002.

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

So you're letting one of the biggest IndyCar-haters on this forum speak for all Americans? That's cool, I guess.

I agree also...The Indy 500 is but a shadow of itself, and no longer worthy of the respect of a true open wheel fan.

I was passionate about Indy in its heyday...it was an annual pilgrimage my Dad and I made as a child..I fervently hope for a merger to restore the Month of May to its special status in the racing world.

[ss_collins]

Mansell returned to F1 in 1994.

Indy this year has how many world champions?

Le Mans has the winner of the Dakar rally, the WR champ, a glut of ex and future F1 stars, and one current driver, Montagny. It has quality in depth. Indy has???

Last years race was really entertaining, but I just can't get exited by a one make grid, GP2 is exciting, but I never watch it - only recently has F3 woken me up (and only in Germany). One make is a plot for disaster.

Reunification is too late as champ car has gone one make. Time for indy to become an open rules event again

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Mansell returned to F1 in 1994.

True, but he didn't return to Formula 1 until after the final Champ Car race of the 1994 season at Laguna Seca.

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Indy this year has how many world champions?

Le Mans has the winner of the Dakar rally, the WR champ, a glut of ex and future F1 stars, and one current driver, Montagny. It has quality in depth. Indy has???

Nice way of ignoring the merits of the drivers entered for this years' Indy 500.

Oh, and Montagny wouldn't have been an active F-1 driver if it wasn't for Ide getting kicked out in the first place.

Speaking of races losing its luster, Le Mans should be right up there - where have the factory teams been to stop Audi from utterly dominating the race year in and year out, for example? It's almost ridiculous how easy Audi has been able to completely own Le Mans as of late.

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Last years race was really entertaining, but I just can't get exited by a one make grid, GP2 is exciting, but I never watch it - only recently has F3 woken me up (and only in Germany). One make is a plot for disaster.

Reunification is too late as champ car has gone one make. Time for indy to become an open rules event again

Don't know what to say really, as I've never really come across anyone as hardcore as you - do you honestly mean the technology is that more important to you than close racing on the track? Wow. Just.. wow.

I can say, however, that you are part of a minority in your views about GP2 though, as there are a ton of people who think the GP2 races each Formula 1 weekend almost is the highlight of the weekend, given all the action just about every race produces.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Speaking of races losing its luster, Le Mans should be right up there - where have the factory teams been to stop Audi from utterly dominating the race year in and year out, for example? It's almost ridiculous how easy Audi has been able to completely own Le Mans as of late.

In P1, you are quite correct the last couple of years. Of course, within a couple of years it appears that you will have factory Acura, Porsche and Peugeot in P1.

You have conveniently forgotten the other classes, with factory (or factory backed) entries by Porsche, Ferrari, Panoz, Aston Martin and Corvette... this year alone.

Every year, there are 80-100 teams applying to race in it, including factories in the various classes... apparently much of the world disagrees with you.

Of course, this isn't much besides a juvenile slagging match really. Your series is worse than mine.... how very boring.

Why can't people stick to the facts? No, the Indy 500 is not irrelevant, but it is less relevant than it was. Easy, no?

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

In P1, you are quite correct the last couple of years. Of course, within a couple of years it appears that you will have factory Acura, Porsche and Peugeot in P1.

You have conveniently forgotten the other classes, with factory (or factory backed) entries by Porsche, Ferrari, Panoz, Aston Martin and Corvette... this year alone.

Every year, there are 80-100 teams applying to race in it, including factories in the various classes... apparently much of the world disagrees with you.

P1 is the main class, and the class that the majority of everyone even remotely interested in Le Mans think about when they think about the race. It's also the class that gets the most attention and, frankly, matters most, hence I did not bother mentioning the other classes.

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against the lower classes, and I think the GT (or whatever the name is of it this year) class, for example, is the most enjoyable one just because of what I mentioned earlier, with Audis boring domination as well as the fact that the open prototypes are.. well.. ugly.

And deadly.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Of course, this isn't much besides a juvenile slagging match really. Your series is worse than mine.... how very boring.

Actually, I watch - and enjoy - both. Well, I would if Eurosport hadn't lost the Le Mans 24 hours rights, that is. Guess $$$ is more important to the organizers than bringing the race to as many viewers as possible.

Hopefully Eurosport will at least have some sort of highlights package to show at some point.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

True, but he didn't return to Formula 1 until after the final Champ Car race of the 1994 season at Laguna Seca.

Actually he did return to F1 before the end of the CART season at the French GP where he retired early in the race.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Actually he did return to F1 before the end of the CART season at the French GP where he retired early in the race.

I stand correected, but it still doesn't change the fact that he was a full-time Champ Car driver making an one-off F-1 race and then a few more after the Champ Car season had ended - not an active full-time F-1 driver making a one-off appearence at the Brickyard (which would have been impossible anyway since the 1994 Indianapolis 500 clashed with the Spanish Grand Prix at Barcelona).

[Audi R8R]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Speaking of races losing its luster, Le Mans should be right up there - where have the factory teams been to stop Audi from utterly dominating the race year in and year out, for example? It's almost ridiculous how easy Audi has been able to completely own Le Mans as of late.

That's not Audi's fault though. The regs are open to everyone at Le Mans and in the ALMS (the LMES/LMS came later) Audi just noticed a great gap in the market for promotion of its product and marketing, shame none of the other manufacturers didn't spot this, as it's a damn sight cheaper than a Formula One budget (are you listening Toyota and BMW...) and they've got more kudos (and undoubtedly more sales) from from the last 6 years than them too...

Porsche canned its LMP1 project, after building the car! All for the sake of the ****box that is the Cayenne, and pushed the rest of it motorsport interest into GT2, where it makes a huge profit from the customer market.

Any manfacturer could have come in to try and challenge Audi's dominance at Le Mans, just that the glory hungry went the way of F1 instead. Which is a shame. However, I reckon Le Mans is on for a MAJOR resurgence as the worlds greatest race over the next 3 years, more manufacturers are now interested and seem to have cottoned on to what Audi have achieved, especially from a marketing/sales point of view. (I don't reckon Toyota are going to stay much longer in F1, neither are Renault)

I'm sure Indy will become the great spectacle (its still a hard and great race) it once was, especially if the merger happens, as it will reignite the fans passion again too.