General Sportscar Chat thread

[Mal]

There have been a few threads recently that whilst having healthy discussion have wandered somewhat off topic and meandered into new directions. Therefore I thought it would be good to have a broad discussion thread in which wider topics could be discussed as long as they have a link to Sportscar racing, remain in good humour and within the forum rules. So here it is - talk away..... The floor is yours.

[Mal]

I have been having a little banter on the comments section of Joe Sawards blog re F1 & Porsche regarding the relevance of Sportscar racing. It is clear that some F1 fans show no respect for anything outside of F1, despite the fact that their are far more manufacturers involved in Sportscars than F1.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Mal

I have been having a little banter on the comments section of Joe Sawards blog re F1 & Porsche regarding the relevance of Sportscar racing. It is clear that some F1 fans show no respect for anything outside of F1, despite the fact that their are far more manufacturers involved in Sportscars than F1.

Cheers for the heads up on that thread Mal. I enjoy reading Joe Saward, and think he's got a lot of fair points, but equally find he's entertainingly tunnel visioned about how Formula One is the be all and end all, and as for the rest of the commenters, well, at least they're a bit more informed than the ranting folk who commented on a McNish column on BBC.

What most people miss is the core point about brand marketing, where it's not just a case of shoving things in front of loads of eyeballs, it's getting the right relationship with the right viewers, which is what Porsche is all about, and has been for the last 15 years or so, since the nadir of the early 1990s.

Easy to get angry when exposed to nonsense spouted by some F1 acolytes, and then you sit back, think that this time next week we'll be looking back on 6 great hours around Spa, and figure if they don't want to know what they're missing, that's their loss.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

F1 is clearly the pinnacle and the most watched and sportscar racing is nowhere close in popularity, however things aren't exactly rosy for them:

Formula 1 has lost nearly 1/6th of their global viewing audience since 2008 despite being heavily inflated by a joke formula.

Out of Europe Markets that have traditionally been strong for the series such as Canada and Japan are seeing record low viewing figures and attendances.

Television audiences in key markets that have traditionally been weak such as China, Russia, and U.S. starting this year have fallen by large percentiles.

3 Confirmed manufacturers, typical rumours from F1 media and sound bites from manufacturers like Honda but nothing yet even close to being confirmed.

Rising ticket prices

Team financial instability (Marussia looks to be the latest having problems)

Sponsorship for teams at nearly record lows in the past 20 years

Moving to Pay TV across Europe.



Will Sportscar racing be able to take advantage of these issues? Probably not, but in the world of motor racing you never know. Nobody in their right minds in 1980 would say that 15 years later NASCAR would have been the most popular motorsport in North America and the Daytona 500 would have higher viewership than the Indy 500. But things changed. The history of motor racing is relatively short, and nothing guarantees formula 1 will be at the top forever, even if it's for another 50 years.

[Starfish Primer]

What is Pat Long doing this year?

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

What is Pat Long doing this year?

ALMS with CORE Autosport's Porsche!!!!

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Formula 1 has lost nearly 1/6th of their global viewing audience since 2008 despite being heavily inflated by a joke formula.

Out of Europe Markets that have traditionally been strong for the series such as Canada and Japan are seeing record low viewing figures and attendances.

Television audiences in key markets that have traditionally been weak such as China, Russia, and U.S. starting this year have fallen by large percentiles.

3 Confirmed manufacturers, typical rumours from F1 media and sound bites from manufacturers like Honda but nothing yet even close to being confirmed.

Rising ticket prices

Team financial instability (Marussia looks to be the latest having problems)

Sponsorship for teams at nearly record lows in the past 20 years

Moving to Pay TV across Europe.

True, and seriously... 6 cylinder F1 cars are so pathetic IMO, that it mimics Indycar, minus the spec aero parts. But I imagine that what if NASCAR suddenly ditches their V8s for turbo V6 engines.

As for the future of motorsport at large, I have a gut feeling that in 100 years, all of forms of motorsport would merge into a giant racing series, let's say it would become the next Can-Am, running in Le Mans, Monaco, or Daytona in the future.

For now, I'm worried about Audi's (or the VW group thanks to Porsche) dominance in Le Mans. Without any competition, I think the 24 Hours would be a boring parade for the group.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Mal

I have been having a little banter on the comments section of Joe Sawards blog re F1 & Porsche regarding the relevance of Sportscar racing. It is clear that some F1 fans show no respect for anything outside of F1, despite the fact that their are far more manufacturers involved in Sportscars than F1.

Let me remind, that right now P1 is a two-way competition. Like self-delusion to count GTE etc. since this Porsche decicions was quite clearly between the top class only (P1) and F1. Hundred brands in GTE doesn't make the competition in P1 any better.

Generally the amount of manufacturer seems to be such an absolute value for sportscar fans. F1 all teams are called constructors for a reason. Would you rather take couple of cheap rebadge "manufacturers" than one big non-manufacturer private team like Red Bull?

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by deggis

Let me remind, that right now P1 is a two-way competition. Like self-delusion to count GTE etc. since this Porsche decicions was quite clearly between the top class only (P1) and F1. Hundred brands in GTE doesn't make the competition in P1 any better.

Generally the amount of manufacturer seems to be such an absolute value for sportscar fans. F1 all teams are called constructors for a reason. Would you rather take couple of cheap rebadge "manufacturers" than one big non-manufacturer private team like Red Bull?

I agree, teams like Red Bull, McLaren and Williams are ''manufacturers'', themselves, and some of their technology has in fact ended up in road cars, with of course McLaren being the greatest example.

In years like 1989, Le Mans had far more quality manufacturers than F1 in C1 Alone. Yet F1 was still by a country mile the most popular sport. If people didn't care back then why would they care now?

P1 is no more quality in terms of manufacturers than F1.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

I agree, teams like Red Bull, McLaren and Williams are ''manufacturers'', themselves, and some of their technology has in fact ended up in road cars, with of course McLaren being the greatest example.

In years like 1989, Le Mans had far more quality manufacturers than F1 in C1 Alone. Yet F1 was still by a country mile the most popular sport. If people didn't care back then why would they care now?

P1 is no more quality in terms of manufacturers than F1.

It's apples and oranges really.

For all of the 30 or so years I've been watching both F1 has always had a fundamentally bigger profile, and I suspect it always will, but there's still a particular niche to be addressed by other forms of motorsport, be it rallying, touring cars, GTs, or prototypes, and there will be brands where there's more of an argument to made in one rather than the other.

As I've said before and elsewhere, the key decision that people funding programmes will make, it what demographic they're talking to, and what's the best route to get there. Sometimes it'll be F1, sometimes it'll be something different.

[Simmi]

And more F1 drivers involved than in F1 - Kind of...

But in all seriousness I think this thread is a good idea. The Porsche LMP1 thread should be left exclusively to speculation about Mark Webber.

[SALEEN S7R]

Regarding the ammount of manufacturers in sportscars vs F1, yes there are more in sportscars but unfortunately few of the factory teams have the glitz and and glamour that you find in a F1 paddock. The Audi and Toyota set up may well be as impressive as F1 teams in terms of motorhomes and facilites etc, but who else? Corvette and AMR maybe but not many else. Vitaphone when they were in the old FIA GT championship achieved this however. What relevence does this have? Well most F1 fans and the general public are sucked in by the F1 atmosphere, you dont quite get that in a sportscar series paddock unfortunately.

As for the F1 drivers comparison, lots of the drivers in sportscars who come from F1 are great in their own right, but I think many F1 fans see them simply as F1 rejects who werent quite good enough to win in F1 for whatever reason. F1, rightly or wrongly, wrongly IMO is still seen as the pinnacle of motorsport and is untouchable in F1 fans minds, personally I would put the WEC on a par with F1 in terms of the series stature.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Personally I would put the WEC on a par with F1 in terms of the series stature.

I agree with a lot of your points but I don't know how you'd even begin to argue this one. It just simply isn't true the gulf between the two series is Grand Canyonesque.

That's not F1 fanboy speak that's just realistic.

And yes as for the manufacturers in sportscars you can't really claim it's like this anymore.

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by Simmi

And yes as for the manufacturers in sportscars you can't really claim it's like this anymore.

Except for in GTE!

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

Except for in GTE!

True, in terms of P1, however I think in such a high-costing class such as LMP1 it is good to have a stable flow of manufacturers rather than a bulk of factory teams like in 1999.

When there are too many factory teams involved in a series, there can only be one winner a season, so manufacturers lose interest and question why they spend so much money to be the 4th or 5th factory team. Examples of this mass manufacturer fallout are Le Mans 2000, BTCC 2000, F1 2009/2010.

IMO the perfect manufacturer number in P1 at least is 3.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MJones94

When there are too many factory teams involved in a series, there can only be one winner a season, so manufacturers lose interest and question why they spend so much money to be the 4th or 5th factory team.

Then Neveu just has to make it worth it to finish 4th or 5th. Right now that's of course the same as finishing last [in class]. The factory team hayday lasted quite long in F1 and some boardrooms seemed quite patient with expectations and results... and even when it ended, a bad economic situation played a big role.

ps. One thing I just realized: despite the many pullouts in F1, only one of them reduced the grid size, and it's the only one that was built in-house from scratch (Toyota).

[Adam43]

I don't understand why people get so hung up about this stuff. Is it really necessary to justify your choices so much? Or to put down other people's choices?

I like both, although I go to Le Mans every year and not GP. However if I did have an observation it is that the chip on a sportscar fan's shoulder tends to be more obvious than the snobbiness of the F1 fan.

[Tim the Grey]

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.
F1 is F1. And as long as Bernie makes shed loads, it won't change significantly.
Sportscars and GTs are where my heart has been for 25 years now. I find the average F1 fan to have NO knowledge of history, while Sportscar fans know who won in 1986...

Whatever, I leave you to debate the whichness of what.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I don't understand why people get so hung up about this stuff. Is it really necessary to justify your choices so much? Or to put down other people's choices?

I like both, although I go to Le Mans every year and not GP. However if I did have an observation it is that the chip on a sportscar fan's shoulder tends to be more obvious than the snobbiness of the F1 fan.

^

This

[Dario911]

IMHO the greatest advantage for F1 is the format. A race 1h30m long is easier to follow for the largest part of the people. So, this makes F1 more commercial than Endurance races. People who follows F1 don't understand Endurance races, because are longer, with cars of different classes, two or more driver each car, different strategies, and longer pito stops. This makes harder to understand this kind of races, and people who doesn't like this kind of format find it boring.
In shorter races like F1 ones, it's easier to understand strategies, there's only one drivers each car, there's a glamour atmosphere, and there's less mind commitment to understand what's happening, and how race will evolve.
Formula 1 format is more commercial, easy, is just like the take-away food in a fast food.
Endurance is just another story, and I'm proud to be from this side of the wall!
Formula 1 is the pinnacle of motorsport only for its followers, but it's undoubtable you find more variety of engines, fuels, specs and classes on the starting grid of Endurance races, instead of F1 ones. Formula 1 is only the most expensive single-brand championship. Cars have all the same engine displacement, number of cylinders, aerodynamic shape (measures are all defined by the rules), use all the same fuel...
Le Mans is quite different; and is clearly more spectacular.
In the last years, the gap between the winners and the opponents is closer and closer, and races are coming faster and faster.
From the performance point of view, P1s are very very close to F1 singleseaters, and the gap is basically for the air-restrictors and the higher weight. Removing air-restrictors, and allowing to manufacturers save more weight, we may have P1 as fast as F1 cars.
Then, I've seen more passionate challenges in Le Mans 24 hours (in all classes) than in the entire Formula 1 season.
At the end, between lovers of F1 and Endurance races, the difference is the same we find between the lovers of the american action movies, and the lovers of the author's movie.
Personally no way to win for action movies. I prefer author's ones.

[Adam43]

Can I change my comment to the snobbiness of sportscar fans is more obvious too!

[Richard C]

It took less than two pages for the general sports car thread to focus on F1!

Richard

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

It took less than two pages for the general sports car thread to focus on F1!

Richard

Exactly!

My two cents: we know that Lotus, which always seems to be on the brink of an utter financial catastrophe, OAK, strong as an oak tree, and Porsche are all coming to LMP1 in the very near future. Now what would the fans of the sport of ENDURANCE RACING, not Formula One, want to see: a Mercedes SLS AMG GTE or a Mercedes LMP1? A Nissan GT-R GTE or a Nissan LMP1? A BMW Z4 GTE or a BMW LMP1? A Jaguar F-TYPE GTE or a Jaguar LMP1?

I'd rather see a completely balanced field rather than one completely outdoing the other. Don't get me wrong, I love GTE. But that's why we have the Blancpain Endurance Series, ADAC GT Masters, DTM, Super GT, FIA GT, VLN, British GT, Pirelli World Challenge, V8 Supercars, etc, etc, etc.



Also, I heard rumors a while ago about a future Jaguar GTE factory program with Williams F1 support. Is that going to take off? I haven't heard anything about it since. :/

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Also, I heard rumors a while ago about a future Jaguar GTE factory program with Williams F1 support. Is that going to take off? I haven't heard anything about it since. :/

I've heard rumors about a Jaguar LMP1 program, one year and half ago. But nothing for sure. It was an interview with Tata owner, who was seduced by the idea to back Jaguar in Le Mans with an LMP1. If my memory works well, he was speaking about 2016. :/

[Mr Pink]

Is it just me or has it been very quite about privateer LMP1 teams for the coming seasons and new regs? Has Pickett or Dyson shown any intrest in joining the WEC ranks? Will HPD build a customer car? Dome? Kodewa?

I'm of course looking forward to seeing the manufacturer teams but I have a weak spot for privateers.