DTM BMW to DTM?

JMeissner · 7 Aug 2009, 09:56 (Ref:2517261)

BMW are yet to make a decision on which touring car series they are going to commit to in 2010. The German manufacturer has criticized the WTCC for a good while and recent statements from BMW Motorsport boss Mario Theissen has sparked speculations on a switch to DTM.

"In any case, we will be present in touring car racing, both with works-supported programmes and in customer competition. We could also imagine other future projects, which we are not ready to talk about yet," said Theissen to Autosport.

http://www.touringcartimes.com/news.php?id=3785

Valenok · 7 Aug 2009, 12:24 (Ref:2517331)

It's impossible, to enter DTM in 2010. And in 2011 WTCC will have another tech reglament, more suitable for BMW. So, Theissen just want to stay in WTCC with more favourable conditions and he press Lotti for it. I think, he want to change weight compensation system.

**BertMk2** · 7 Aug 2009, 14:40 (Ref:2517387)

Also the regs for DTM are due to change so there is no way BMW would want to enter that next year.

Hazard · 7 Aug 2009, 16:41 (Ref:2517438)

Maybe means a works assault on the BTCC?

Can't think that's what he means though - it's probably an idle threat to scare the FIA.

Moneyseeker · 7 Aug 2009, 17:52 (Ref:2517463)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazard

Maybe means a works assault on the BTCC?

Can't think that's what he means though - it's probably an idle threat to scare the FIA.

I can't see BMW doing the BTCC as a works effort. Their cars are winning races at no cost (indeed at a profit) to BMW and entering a factory team would simply alienate their customers.

I can see them perhaps supporting their customer teams more and have a larger on event presence for hospitality, dealers, etc

andy_b · 7 Aug 2009, 23:08 (Ref:2517614)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hazard

Maybe means a works assault on the BTCC?

wont be eligable from 2011 as RWD is banned in BTCC with the new regs

PDS · 7 Aug 2009, 23:17 (Ref:2517617)

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy_b

wont be eligable from 2011 as RWD is banned in BTCC with the new regs

Apparently the decision is not final! According to Alan Gow...

Personally, I would love to see BMW back in the DTM.

Andy77 · 7 Aug 2009, 23:51 (Ref:2517628)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PDS

Apparently the decision is not final! According to Alan Gow...

Personally, I would love to see BMW back in the DTM.

Personally I would like to see a DTM without silhouettes and cars stable enough to survive the slight driving on the edge contact

Valenok · 8 Aug 2009, 04:11 (Ref:2517684)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy77

Personally I would like to see a DTM without silhouettes and cars stable enough to survive the slight driving on the edge contact

I think, GT regulations, or any production based, would be base of mess and quarrel, like in WTCC. Don't forget, DTM is manufacturers serie. Only silhouettes can give stable rules.
But DTM cars must be more endurable and provide light contact fight.

JMeissner · 7 Aug 2009, 16:53 (Ref:2517446)

Of course they won't enter DTM in 2010, but the question is for 2011...

Sodemo · 7 Aug 2009, 17:22 (Ref:2517455)

BMW have basically been screwed in the WTCC several times.

First they got rid of one of the standing starts (BMW advantage), then there is the on-going squabbling about the TDI performance's (which actually affects all petrol teams not just BMW).

Its true though, BMW have had a bad year, some bad luck, some bad team play (if you think that sort of thing belongs in motorsport in the first place), and the other teams have raised their game I feel also.

If they were going to be fair then they would have reduced some of the weight off the BMW's due to them having only one standing start, or for the rolling start race say that the BMW's can lose 20kg of weight, or allow them to use sequential boxes without extra weight penalties, something along those lines.

stedevil · 8 Aug 2009, 19:48 (Ref:2517995)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

If they were going to be fair then they would have reduced some of the weight off the BMW's due to them having only one standing start

You must be joking. The only thing that's fair when there is a mix of F&RWD is having 100% rolling starts. So BMW still has an unfair advantage.

Sodemo · 9 Aug 2009, 00:09 (Ref:2518186)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedevil

You must be joking. The only thing that's fair when there is a mix of F&RWD is having 100% rolling starts. So BMW still has an unfair advantage.

So then if the WTCC was 100% rolling starts the BMW's should lose more weight then.

Valenok · 7 Aug 2009, 18:05 (Ref:2517468)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMeissner

Of course they won't enter DTM in 2010, but the question is for 2011...

In 2011 SEAT TDi couldn't be their main rival, so they could return their place in the top of protocols
But if they decide to promote 1-series, that, AFAIK, is not promoted now, exceprt rally-cross... I think, 116ti could be a good race car...

Andy77 · 7 Aug 2009, 21:38 (Ref:2517576)

DTM currently debates a GT2 like regulation for the future so a BMW ain't too much out of distance

Sodemo · 8 Aug 2009, 07:47 (Ref:2517723)

I wouldn't be surprised if BMW do leave the WTCC, it would be a finger in the eye for KSO and the FIA.

**FIRE** · 8 Aug 2009, 12:04 (Ref:2517804)

There's also a GT1 and GT2 class in (A)LMS and Le Mans.

Valenok · 8 Aug 2009, 16:17 (Ref:2517873)

With no works teams

duke_toaster · 8 Aug 2009, 20:57 (Ref:2518084)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valenok

With no works teams

I'm pretty sure works teams are banned in FIAGT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedevil

You must be joking. The only thing that's fair when there is a mix of F&RWD is having 100% rolling starts. So BMW still has an unfair advantage.

I think describing it as an "unfair advantage" isn't that accurate as SEAT and Chevrolet would have had the same advantages (and disadvantages) if they built a RWD car.

One way of ironing that out would be a transition to a set of rules that only permits one drive type (e.g. 4WD or RWD only), but that would have other issues related (how production based would the cars be, and what engines would you want for example)

stedevil · 9 Aug 2009, 21:27 (Ref:2518490)

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I think describing it as an "unfair advantage" isn't that accurate as SEAT and Chevrolet would have had the same advantages (and disadvantages) if they built a RWD car.

And if Audi and Subaru would be allowed to race with 4WD all the others would only need to build their own 4WD cars...

The fact still remains, BMW getting a weight break because they only have an advantage in 1 race makes no sense. And BMW certainly is not too heavy realitive the competition currently. That they have faild to take advantage in points from their advantage on track is a mix of incompetense and bad luck, not due to an underperforming or too heavy car.

Dead-Eye · 9 Aug 2009, 00:14 (Ref:2518191)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valenok

With no works teams

Corvette, among others.

Valenok · 9 Aug 2009, 08:21 (Ref:2518261)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Corvette, among others.

I remember, when it were few makes in ALMS GT1, Corvette had advantage due to IMSA politic, so other teams prefered to leave serie or class.

**FIRE** · 9 Aug 2009, 10:23 (Ref:2518311)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valenok

With no works teams

Works teams are not allowed in FIA GT, but in (A)LMS they are allowed. Yesterday the Corvette GT2 factory team made their debut in ALMS (of course they were a factory GT1 team last decade). Also BMW has a factory GT2 team in ALMS. Ferrari and Porsche have semi-factory teams.

BTW For DTM it would be much better if there were no factory teams. They should only allow private teams with backing of manufacturers (e.g. supplying drivers, sponsorship).

helgi · 9 Aug 2009, 06:20 (Ref:2518233)

Excuse me,but how can you transform 'unfair RWD advantage' into kilograms of ballast? Is it quantum mechanics of some sort?

Sodemo · 10 Aug 2009, 16:51 (Ref:2518941)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helgi

Excuse me,but how can you transform 'unfair RWD advantage' into kilograms of ballast? Is it quantum mechanics of some sort?

Part of the weight penalty for rear wheel drive car is for the benefit they get at a standing start. Depending on the situation they can jump 2-4 rows of cars.

No its not an exact science, but then neither is weight compensation in its entirety.

Why not have no weight penalties at all. Why not just say every car has to be 1000Kg and thats it?

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