Doug Nye's article "History - a given, not a gift".

[D-Type]

In the current Motor Sport Doug Nye has written an article titled "History - a given, not a gift". He describes the practice of

~ proper-car owners becoming dissatisfied withe caopabilities of their proper car's proper chassis and then selling it off "without the history" so they can rebuild their car around a fresh, and more competitive chassis.

He expands this to the scenario where someone takes the discarded chassis and builds up a car on it. We then potentially have two cars claiming the same "identity"

I don't know if this question has been discussed previously as I seldom visit this subforum but I would be interested in the views of those who are actively competing in historic racing.

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by D-Type

In the current Motor Sport Doug Nye has written an article titled "History - a given, not a gift". He describes the practice of
He expands this to the scenario where someone takes the discarded chassis and builds up a car on it. We then potentially have two cars claiming the same "identity"

I don't know if this question has been discussed previously as I seldom visit this subforum but I would be interested in the views of those who are actively competing in historic racing.

I have just had a car offered to me, a single seater at a very good price.
Researched it on the net (most of it in 10/10 chassis history forum) and found exactly this story.
somebody rebuilds a car, with a reframe, laters sells complete chassis and car seperately, now 2 cars exist.....

done by a well known collector
offered to me by "friend"
lesson, dont buy anything that Yoo have not checked by somebody who knows that particular make

2 hours on the net saved me considerable aggro and a lot of money

Rudolf

[john ruston]

Doug Nye is the most able journalist historian around and a good bloke to boot.We have had our disagreements on the other place.

He probably comes from the point of view that there is very little connection between Historic Racing and Historic cars .I am beginning to agree with him.

It's an interesting topic when you read this stuff about Appendix K .Less and less Historic and more and more look alike s.Pleased I am at the retirement end of the hobby and think we were there at the best times at end of 90's and for next four years.The MM was a real event although nothing like the original one rather than the car exhibition it is today.Shell/Ferrari challenge,Real Pre War stuff and very little of those 60's things.

[john ruston]

Have now read the article and should be required reading for all people involved in Historic Motoring.Put it in the entrant packages at LMC,Monaco,Goodwood and all the other places.

Of course he is 100% correct!

Basic premise.All involved get real

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by john ruston

It's an interesting topic when you read this stuff about Appendix K .Less and less Historic and more and more look alike s.Pleased I am at the retirement end of the hobby and think we were there at the best times at end of 90's and for next four years.

That's the problem, isn't it? It ought to be a hobby, but for some it's about pot-hunting.

If they want trophies, maybe they should race in contemporary series. Or maybe those are a bit too hard...

[terence]

Probably the contemporary races are better policed.

[john ruston]

Nothing to do with being better policing.

It all about what is Historic Motoring.Jenks was correct in his assertion that it's not real racing.

Read the article.

Possibility more people would do it if the people involved forgot about changing the cars.

[terence]

Which is exactly whats been said quite a few times in the past.

[john ruston]

Can't remember it being as succinct before.

It's about peoples mind set before they start rather than the actual mechanics.

The base premise is that very sensible people lose their marbles when getting involved with old cars.

[Giraffe138]

Here is a quote from DCN from a little while ago that I thought was worth saving at the time....



The classic and historic car world is riven with self-serving deception - and also self-serving self-deception. In truth the actual history of any artefact is never within the gift of any, inevitably temporary, owner. There was an early Lotus sports-racing car, sold to the US, returned years later as a bent and battered relic, and then 'restored' basically by having its chassis frame replaced by new. The owner of the time later sold the discarded original frame into other hands, while specifying that "the history does not go with this frame". In other words he attempted to specify that "the history" of the car and its American ownership would only "go" with the recreated car, assembled around the replacement, approximately one year-old, chassis frame.

This is fundamentally indefensible nonsense. The history of the original, discarded, now-sold chassis frame is utterly indelible, and plainly remains so until the day that the last vestige of that structure is finally melted down or corrodes away. Some things are not within the gift of mere man, and this is one of them. As for chassis plates - schmassis plates - a minor consideration in the factual scheme of things.

DCN

[terence]

Problem is,it will never stop! Sounds very much like the GT40 chassis section that has grown into a 'historicly important vehicle'[Wonder where the new one is?]

[zefarelly]

new chassis plates are often the first bit to be remanufactured

[Rudernst]

I am now at a point where I dont believe anything about a historic (race) car anymore until I have checked out history and details with trusted experts.

Last weekend I was at the Classic Car fair in Bremen near where I live.
A dealer (well known for sailing very close to the wind) displayed a very rare German Sports Racer, a 1950ies Borgward RS. I have wanted one for a while, so I looked into it.
The engine is obviously original, You just cant fake an obscure German Twin Cam Racing engine WITH BOSCH DIRECT FUEL INJCETION.
The bodywork is brand new, unpainted, but the car is claimed to be original.
I just dont trust that guy....


One hour later, I am disillusioned again.
Turns out that some of these engines were fitted to Cooper single seaters in period, mostly by Germans.
As the DI Injection is very difficult to run and the Borgward engine is underdeveloped against the Climax FPF, they were later removed and replaced by Coventrys best.

The car is newly built around one of these engines.
"history unknown"

Asking price was 450.000 Euros, too much for what is mostly a replica.


arrrrrrrrrrg



Rudolf

[terence]

DN obviously has the same ideal's as some of us. New cars with original number plates etc etc.

[Giraffe138]

Not long ago I viewed a well known car on behalf of a syndicate who were interested in acquiring it. During it's considerable career, it had been retubbed (the original tub forming the base for a similar car which now claims non-specific history).
As it was about 40% into it's period career when it was retubbed, my calculation of it's market price was to take the estimated value of an identical car with no period history to speak of and subtract that from the asking price, and then to add to this 40% of the difference between this and the asking price for it's history.
Needless to say, the owner also valued the car with the history it didn't actually have.

[Robyn Slater]

Can i ask a simple question?

How do you value "History"?

[Giraffe138]

Originally Posted by Robyn Slater

Can i ask a simple question?

How do you value "History"?

With some difficulty, although it should be born in mind that nostalgia has a sell by date. Once people pass away that actually recall the car racing in period, values tend to fall away unless the car in question has a particularily outstanding record. The boom in historic racing artificially inflates values, and these would decrease rapidly if the historic scene began to decline.
As with everything in this world, something is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, and everything is for sale, it's just the price that's the issue!

[john ruston]

So why do all those Pre War cars like Teardrops,Ulsters,105's,Bentleys cost so much .

Your theory does not hold water!Sorry mate.

[Giraffe138]

Originally Posted by john ruston

So why do all those Pre War cars like Teardrops,Ulsters,105's,Bentleys cost so much .

Your theory does not hold water!Sorry mate.

Historical value John. They are amongst the earliest of cars, let alone racers. When old racing cars were going cheap, they were still relatively costly. It's a sliding scale and it would be interesting, if time consuming to do a thorough analysis.

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by Giraffe138

Historical value John. They are amongst the earliest of cars, let alone racers. When old racing cars were going cheap, they were still relatively costly. It's a sliding scale and it would be interesting, if time consuming to do a thorough analysis.

Car value today is very much beeing driven by what You can do/enter/get invited with it.

Invitability counts more than historic value.
If a car is invitable for the top events like Goodwood AND competive, the value is sky high.

Look at the drop in value for post 1904 cars that wont get into the London/Brighton regardless of how significant they are.

Look at the relatively high value fo Formula Juniors that can do Goodwood, Silverstone Classic and possibly Monaco again in relation to other single seaters such as FFord 1600.

Aston Martin Ulster values went through the roof when the Mille Miglia announced that this would be (historically correct) the only pre war Aston Martin that they would accept in future.

In fact, the Mille Miglia is more relevant to car valuation than other events because it is more accessible as You dont have to be a racing driver.

The same principle (invitability=value) applies to the Concours crowd and the cars that can do well in that scene.

Giraffe is right in that the values would implode if historic racing/rallying once becomes less popular than it is right now.


Rudolf

[terence]

Makes a lot of sense Rude. Value only comes from some thing being desirable,no interest-no value so you throw it away.

[simon drabble]

has that not always been the driver of price?

[terence]

Of course it has,wouldnt pay the same price for a fake painting.

[Giraffe138]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

has that not always been the driver of price?

The consumer items of today often become the collectors items of tomorrow. People discard them as they hold no interest and have no value and as a result they become rare and values rise as a result.

[simon drabble]

for as long as there has been historic racing (ie since 50's) the cars that were competitive at the better historic races have carried a premium. People have always wanted to win and grid position is determined by chequebook to a certain degree.
The rate of price inflation has increased over the last 15 years as events like Goodwood have opened it to a wider audience. Not necessarily a bad thing - it is what it is.
Personally I have gone full circle and actually now find current racing more compelling and if I was entering the arena now would focus on modern endurance. Same level of development as current historic race cars but some how more relevant.
I haven't turned my back on historics just will only dip in occassionally.