MHDT Commodores

[Camaroz]

Hi All,

I currently own two Group ‘C’ Australian Touring Cars from 1980, the Marlboro Holden Dealer Team (MHDT) VB Commodore (1980 ATCC winner) and the MHDT VC Commodore (1980 Bathurst Winner). I will reference these cars as Car 1 and Car 2.

Over the past years I have spent countless hours establishing the authenticity of both of these cars so that they are presented in as close to original condition as is possible.

I have been able to establish a clear line of history for both cars, their racing histories and chain of ownership demonstrating to me that vehicles I purchased for restoration are undisputedly authentic (see below).

As with many historic race cars, there are always stories, innuendo, he said-she said, rumors, supposed little known facts etc, from both dubious and respected sources that, unfortunately, more than often leads to misinformation becoming fact or folklore.

That is not to say that there is no other information out there. There well could be!

Therefore, I ask that if any person has any information or detail, be it supportive or contradictory to the authenticity of my cars, that they please let me know as soon as possible, either on the Forum, by email or hard mail (P.O.Box 5030, Studfield. 3152). Sometime before the end of May would be appreciated.

I also refer those interested to the document “The Case of Old Bentley Number One” - http://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html which is conclusive as regards “authenticity” of Historic Vehicles. It is a good read.

To me, my two vehicles represent a very important and respected part of Australian motor racing history so they have to be right!

Best regards, Rowan Harman.

Car 1.

1979. First built as the prototype VB Commodore Group C by the MHDT.
1980. VB. Brock. ATCC, Brock/Harvey CRC 300. VB. Harvey, Adelaide Enduro.
1980. VC. Moffat, Sandown. Harvey/Harrop, Bathurst. Sold to Benson-Brown.
1981. VC. Benson-Brown ATCC. Benson-Brown/Rogers Bathurst. Damaged.
1981/82. Repaired as VH, later back to VC, then VH for Enduro’s. Benson Brown ATCC, Benson-Brown/C. O’Brien Sandown/Bathurst.
1982/83. Rebuilt using new VH shell. Benson-Brown ATCC, Benson Brown/Rogers, Sandown/Bathurst.
1984. Sold to Keogh, Northern Territory Team car, Stack/Clift/Keogh, Sandown/Bathurst.
1985. Converted to VK Group A. Keogh ATCC. Sold to Ray Ellis. Ellis/McLure Sandown/Bathurst.
1986. Ellis ATCC. Ellis/Baily, Sandown/Bathurst.
1987. Ellis ATCC. Ellis built a new VL, (the VL now owned by Mark Taylor – Qld). Car 1 partially converted to VL “show car”.
1987 – 2003. Car 1 in storage.
2003. Purchased by Rowan Harman.

Car 2.

1980. Second MHDT Commodore built. VB. Brock, Adelaide. VC. Brock, Sandown. Brock/Richards, Bathurst.
1981. Brock ATCC. Harvey/Schuppan, Sandown/Bathurst.
1982. MHDT
1983. Sold to Keogh. Keogh ATCC, Sandown. Keogh/Leonard, Bathurst.
1984. Keogh ATCC. Keogh/Shiel, Bathurst/Sandown.
1985. Sold to Burgman/Stevens.
1985/86. Sold to East. Converted to VK.
1987. Sold to Blackney
1988. Converted to AUSCAR. Blackney, AUSCAR, 1988 – 1992.
1992/93. Sold to Jones.
1994/95. Jones AUSCAR Sportsman. Damaged at the Thunderdome Nov 95.
1995. Rebuilt into new shell.
1995/96. Jones AUSCAR Sportsman.
1996/2009. Jones.
2009. Purchased by Rowan Harman.

ENDS.

[Oran Park Forever]

The sticking point IMO are the words "new" & "shell".

Once a re-shell occurs, then the lineage stops. Sure the running gear &
ancillaries can be transplanted from the original vehicle, but it doesn't mean it's still the same vehicle.

For example 'Car 1' can be restored to it's '83 'Rogers/Benson Brown' spec, as that's where the new VH shell was built to replace the original......2
years after MHDT had already sold it.

'Post era' re-shelling will always bring with it many opinions & interpretations of what constitutes 'authentic'.

Just my 2 bobs worth.....


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[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

The sticking point IMO are the words "new" & "shell".

Once a re-shell occurs, then the lineage stops. Sure the running gear &
ancillaries can be transplanted from the original vehicle, but it doesn't mean it's still the same vehicle.

For example 'Car 1' can be restored to it's '83 'Rogers/Benson Brown' spec, as that's where the new VH shell was built to replace the original......2
years after MHDT had already sold it.

'Post era' re-shelling will always bring with it many opinions & interpretations of what constitutes 'authentic'.

Just my 2 bobs worth.....


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Thanks OPF,

First up, do you have any additional info on the cars re the line of history?

Secondly, production based race cars that were repaired using a new shell is acceptable to the CAMS AHMSC provided a clear line of history can be established. This is due to production based race cars being treated the same as all other race cars. As an example, say a Lola F5000 has a big crash. The car is rebuilt using a new tub, bodywork, three corners, new nose cone and rear wing. It then resumes racing. Is it a new car or a repaired car?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

As an example, say a Lola F5000 has a big crash. The car is rebuilt using a new tub, bodywork, three corners, new nose cone and rear wing. It then resumes racing. Is it a new car or a repaired car?

Usually it would be considered to be the existing car/chassis?

i've always felt that the car is no longer the same car if it is shunted declared written off and the chassis and reg plate is thrown away....

However in comparison I can see how that re-shelling a saloon car might cause confusion?

[Alex E]

It is interesting that you use an F5000 as an example, as it seems to me that different catagories of motorsport seem to have a different attitude to replacing the `chassis`, or body. Some single seaters seem to have had several new `chassis` but still seem to retain their history despite this. Even though almost none of the current car might have present when the car won XXXX in 1975 or whatever.
But with saloon cars it seems to be that the history follows the bodyshell. Except maybe in rallyng where there are more reasons to re-shell a car.
In your situation I would be more concerned about where the original bodies went ? As they have a habit of re-appearing.....
Alex

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Alex E

In your situation I would be more concerned about where the original bodies went ? As they have a habit of re-appearing.....
Alex

Both verified as destroyed/gone/in the tip by Car 1 lead mechanic and Car 2 previous owner.

One of the reasons for the thread is that someone may have been at the Springvale Tip in 1983, looked through the scrap metal bin and plucked out the remnants of the original Car 1 body shell, taken them home and stitched them back together and rebuilt the Commodore for his/her mum! So I need to find mum's old Commodore, buy it and start again. Same story with Car 2 except it went to metal recyclers so it may still be with us as part of a KIA.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

Thanks OPF,

First up, do you have any additional info on the cars re the line of history?

Secondly, production based race cars that were repaired using a new shell is acceptable to the CAMS AHMSC provided a clear line of history can be established. This is due to production based race cars being treated the same as all other race cars. As an example, say a Lola F5000 has a big crash. The car is rebuilt using a new tub, bodywork, three corners, new nose cone and rear wing. It then resumes racing. Is it a new car or a repaired car?

Sorry Rowan I don't have any further info than what you've already compiled.

My main focus centres around Group C cars that go through a '
metamorphosis' at some point, which is completely fine as 'motor racing is dangerous' afterall & cars cop a beating, some more than others. CAMS allow re-shelling which is also fine, otherwise we'd end up with massive holes on the entry list.

However when it comes to restorations, I firmly believe that chronology should be respected. In this case, a VH shell which rolled off GM's production line in 1983 & first hit the track in September of the same year can't be considered an authentic 1980 VB built by MHDT.

If the re-shelling was done during the 1980 season by MHDT, then raced again before sold, perfect!

As mentioned in an above post, the 'what if' scenario of the original shell turning up is a restorer's version of a living nightmare. The 'what ifs' could include markings on the shell's A, B or C pillars, or code stamping made by the team who originally built it.

Then one day a proud owner becomes intrigued by their road car's perculiar markings......does some digging.......& surprise!!

It's happened before.........& is still happening to this day! Your mention of the Lola F5000 example is having that exact effect. Currently I know of 3 different cases of owners claiming to have the same chassis.


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[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

However when it comes to restorations, I firmly believe that chronology should be respected. In this case, a VH shell which rolled off GM's production line in 1983 & first hit the track in September of the same year can't be considered an authentic 1980 VB built by MHDT.

OPF, I can see your point as a "pure line of thinking", but little in motor sport or race car restoration is pure! We can only do our best. Without nit-picking, the restoration(s) only used NOS VB/C/H parts and panels where available or sourced and VB/C/H donor cars where new were not available.

There is no discernable difference between VB/C/H shells. Is there?

To correct the time line above, the VH motor sport shells were produced around March/May 1982. CB-B did the rebuild using the new VH shell after Bathurst 1982 and first ran in the 1983 ATCC.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

OPF, I can see your point as a "pure line of thinking", but little in motor sport or race car restoration is pure! We can only do our best. Without nit-picking, the restoration(s) only used NOS VB/C/H parts and panels where available or sourced and VB/C/H donor cars where new were not available.

There is no discernable difference between VB/C/H shells. Is there?

To correct the time line above, the VH motor sport shells were produced around March/May 1982. CB-B did the rebuild using the new VH shell after Bathurst 1982 and first ran in the 1983 ATCC.

Yes I stand corrected on it being a 1982 build, which is still 2 years after 1980!

I guess this is the area of Historic motorsport where interpretation of a rule is most varied. If there could be 'sliding scale' accreditation of racing machinery within the categories ie: original, rebuilt original, restored to spec/new components, restored to spec/new shell, this would remove most if not all controversies.

It would also please the owners of original machinery I'm sure!

All the best for your search of the remaining pieces of the puzzle!


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