Running wide

[Peter Horsman]

Autosport reports that the MSA has agreed that the track limits should be strictly enforced at race meetings, and have instructed all CoCs to adopt a consistent approach.

Second transgression - a waved flag. Third - five second panalty. Fourth - drive through. Fifth - exclusion.

Having lit the blue touch paper, I shall now retire for the time being............

[midgetman]

Good news! It's percolating down from the Bangers n Crash Touring Cars, and needs clamping down on.

[Clive Brown]

But as ever, the Devil will be in the detail.... What constitutes a breach of the track limits- two wheels off.... four wheels off? What if a driver is forced off, as Plato did to Collard out of the chicane at Donington? What if a driver makes a genuine mistake, and breaches track limits through incompetence, rather than through seeking to gain an unfair advantage?

Personally, I'm sick and tired of seeing drivers cut out those parts of circuits upon which they did not wish to run, and this started with watching Gerry Marshall driving over and through, rather than around, the chicane at Thruxton in the 70s.

I can't believe just how this latter corner has now been emasculated to enable bad driving and/or outright cheating to escape unpunished; rebuild it with vertical RSJs supporting concrete walls.

The late Tony Lanfranchi said that the way to stop accidents at Paddock Bend at Brands was to insert bloody great horizontal steel spikes in the bank facing outwards towards the circuit. I'm not sure he was wrong.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

But as ever, the Devil will be in the detail.... What constitutes a breach of the track limits- two wheels off.... four wheels off? What if a driver is forced off, as Plato did to Collard out of the chicane at Donington? What if a driver makes a genuine mistake, and breaches track limits through incompetence, rather than through seeking to gain an unfair advantage?

It's very clearly defined - four wheels off, over the white line. As for "genuine mistakes", no penalties are imposed until the third offence - three genuine mistakes suggests that maybe a driver may be a danger to himself or to other drivers.

I'm not sure why Autosport has apparently only just noticed this - it's been in force from the start of the season!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

. . .
Personally, I'm sick and tired of seeing drivers cut out those parts of circuits upon which they did not wish to run, and this started with watching Gerry Marshall driving over and through, rather than around, the chicane at Thruxton in the 70s.
. . .

Really?

I seem to recall that the Thruxton chicane during most of the 70's was an Armco construction with lorry tyres (concrete filled ?) protecting the facing end.

Or have I got the years wrong?

But I wholly agree with the sentiment of your post.

Regards

Jim

[Alex E]

Was it Tony Lanfranchi that said if they put pointed wooden spikes around the outside of Paddock Hill then less people would crash there.
I think this was prior the the changing of the profile of Paddock.

[Clive Brown]

I did not make myself sufficiently clear; my bad.

The Thruxton chicane of the 70s was indeed as you describe. What a shame it isn't now- that would sort the banger drivers in the BTCC out.

Gerry Marshall used to drive over the kerbs (which made for great photos, as it put the inside wheels of the car off the ground), and over the flat concrete areas between the kerb and the Armco. It's corner cutting, and it's cheating; was then, is now.

[Greem]

We (flaggies and post chiefs) been asked to report factually all instances of "four wheels off" *but* to include all relevant information. This removes the "should we report that one?" question and makes it clearer for everyone.

This means "four wheels off to driver's right, forced wide avoiding a spinning car" is reported but the extra detail means that is unlikely to result in action. Repeated running wide with no obvious cause other than taking a faster or shorter line however will do (and has).

At the Donington Historic meeting the crew on my post started playing "four wheels off bingo". Sadly they didn't get 66 or 88 to complete the card!

[delta]

Ive said it before and I will say it again. If we still had armco this problem would not happen.You dont have runoff with street circuits so drivers keep well within their limits

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by delta

Ive said it before and I will say it again. If we still had armco this problem would not happen.You dont have runoff with street circuits so drivers keep well within their limits

Well said, Sir!

[terence]

Originally Posted by delta

Ive said it before and I will say it again. If we still had armco this problem would not happen.You dont have runoff with street circuits so drivers keep well within their limits

That makes me think of the "Ring",four off? you walk [hopefully] home!. As has been said,this has been in force from the start of this season,not before time!!!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Horsman

Autosport reports that the MSA has agreed that the track limits should be strictly enforced at race meetings, and have instructed all CoCs to adopt a consistent approach.

Looks like Graham Hill bend last w/end in the pic? In which case we know who is illustrating the point! I guess you were already past the camera, Peter...... I managed to do the same on Sunday but had the excuse of oil from a blown Camaro just in front.....

Do you think JP instructed the new infield at Snetterton to have no run off for that reason? 4 wheels off there and you are very disadvantaged at least. Works for me.

[Chigley]

Ive said it before and I will say it again. If we still had armco this problem would not happen

+1

PS Maybe some police stinger spikes just beyond the kerbing.

[zefarelly]

Well said Iain and Clive. totally agree.

I ran right off the road at Snett last time out, total accident and lost me the lead, didn't do it again, drove within the limits and got quicker.

you see it at Spa at the Top of Eu Rouge as well . . .at least until someone totals the car and everyone calms down a bit

[GORDON STREETER]

I started on the ovals, now you realy dont want to run out of road !

[jamesjtucker]

The problem with penalty changing depending on how many times you drive of the track, I can't see how they can police it, would take even more marshals and observers and someone in the office totting up every offense per driver.

Easiest way is to put armco on the edge of the track like on the short ovals and Monaco.

[The SpeCTator]

Originally Posted by jamesjtucker

The problem with penalty changing depending on how many times you drive of the track, I can't see how they can police it, would take even more marshals and observers and someone in the office totting up every offense per driver.

Easiest way is to put armco on the edge of the track like on the short ovals and Monaco.

Not popular with the motor bikes

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by The SpeCTator

Not popular with the motor bikes

Thought Cadwell was a motor bike track first and foremost? Not too many run offs there...

IIRC I read that when Goodwood first became a race circuit, the motor cyclists demanded hazards at the side of the track because it was "too easy" with grass run offs!

[Alan Crook]

Originally Posted by jamesjtucker

The problem with penalty changing depending on how many times you drive of the track, I can't see how they can police it, would take even more marshals and observers and someone in the office totting up every offense per driver.

This has been policed at all meetings I have been to this year ranging across many different organizing clubs, yes this puts more on observers and staff in race control. At 1 meeting at Silverstone the race log was 67 pages as opposed to the normal 11 or 12.

Its also amazing how many drivers come into the pits when shown a black and white flag not knowing what it means.

[terence]

Even more amazing is the number of flags obviously not part of quite a few drivers knowledge!

[Alan Crook]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Even more amazing is the number of flags obviously not part of quite a few drivers knowledge!

Next time I see you Terry I will do a quick test to check your knowledge of flags !!!!

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Alan Crook

This has been policed at all meetings I have been to this year ranging across many different organizing clubs, yes this puts more on observers and staff in race control. At 1 meeting at Silverstone the race log was 67 pages as opposed to the normal 11 or 12.

Its also amazing how many drivers come into the pits when shown a black and white flag not knowing what it means.

A good result: Warned for driving standards and self-penalised for ignorance of the rules.

Jim

[Chigley]

So when is someone actaully going to apply it?

Peter, we (Observers) have been applying this for some considerable time, however now the onus is on RC to actually dish out penalties (which they are now doing). Earlier this year at the MSVR meeting at Silverstone in one day I completed four A4 sheets of paper,drawn into four columns each, of four wheel off infringements giving car number and time of offence. I believe a fair few drivers had a chat with the CoC plus other warnings/penalties.
We are still giving leeway if a genuine mistake (that doesn't involve keeping your foot down and gaining advantage) or on track incident forces a car off the track.

[Chigley]

This little gem from the MSA will upset a few and IMHO well done MSA to have the gonads to finally clamp down on running wide. As I read this paper you can't run wide with one wheel let alone have virtually all of the car rally Xcrossing.

[terence]

Not before time!!!!