The "development" of Historic Racing Cars discussion Post Spa 6Hrs 2013.

[grantp]

The more one thinks about it the more one surely comes to the conclusion that few non-club racer owned cars out there in Times Historique stayed the same for more than a meeting or two at a time. Maybe only a race or two.

Most F1 cars had quite significant alterations between races and the same will have trickled down through the professional and semi-professional plateaus.

There were a few pre-war and the odd post war racer at Angouléme last weekend that had a patina suggesting the age of decades. Whether that would have been true under the metal skins one would have to doubt. Most regularly run Historic cars probably do far more in a season now than they would ever have been asked to do in a working life in period. Things move on. Not necessarily for better or worse. They just move on.

Maybe there are certain clearly controllable and well defined classic configurations that can be fully monitored but in the main and on balance is is probably better to have a few people spending a fortune to gain a second here and there sometimes than it is to have cars in invisible storage locations.

But in the end it is all a game for the competitors and the spectators and other interested parties, whether one or two bus loads strong, will have no voice and probably would not warrant one.

[Peter Mallett]

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! Agreed, everyone moans about development but if you can use unobtainium to make your pistons and those pistons are the correct size, then I guess there's nothing anyone can do about it. If however your pistons are oversized then it isn't development, it's cheating which is the difference in my opinion. Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[John Turner]

A few examples of the subject being discussed if you wish to wade through them. The first post below was my attempt to categorise:-


http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....7&postcount=79

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ne+sand&page=2

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ight=Line+sand

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ight=Line+sand

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ight=Line+sand

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ight=Line+sand

[terence]

Interesting to see those post's going back to around 2007 John,some questions arise. Apart from Marsters making a stand against MGBs a few years ago,JH telling the seven B owners at Silverstone that if they went out and qualified,the heads would be removed,what else has been done? Any reaction from the MSA/FIA on virtually all makes and types of competing cars?MGBs that do Spa in 3:05s ARE BENT,organisers ever had a head off to find out why? Does anyone actually care as long as the grids are full?
Jeremy Halls words during a conversation concerning a car we,CMS,were building come back to me," Forget Historic Racing Terry,its ****ed and wont be anything like it should be in ten years time"-that leaves four years to go then!

[Dinkel]

http://www.sportscardigest.com/cars-...otus-elan-26r/

Good points there about the Elan: us mere mortals (well, me being a non-racer), what do we know? And with a four box, OK. Happy with these facts. Over to real life no. Sorry for this hot balloon. Please slap me for it if it is necessary: I'm just a peeping guest here.

[John Turner]

No problems, Dinkel; you merely asked the question!

[john ruston]

Clive Brown You have hit the nail on the head.

It may annoy Mr Mallet but the continued arms race in all forms of historic circuit racing will kill the pastime.

Check the lap times of two of the best drivers in historic racing a certain Mr Hadfield and his no1 sidekick Michael Schryver from a few years ago in 6 hr race and lap times now.

An Élan from any period should not be as quick as a sports racer.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Clive Brown You have hit the nail on the head.

It may annoy Mr Mallet but the continued arms race in all forms of historic circuit racing will kill the pastime.

Check the lap times of two of the best drivers in historic racing a certain Mr Hadfield and his no1 sidekick Michael Schryver from a few years ago in 6 hr race and lap times now.

An Élan from any period should not be as quick as a sports racer.

Not annoyed John, just not on topic and as JT says the discussion has been and will continue to be, had. Just try not to bring it up here.

[john ruston]

By the way Messrs H and S used a 26 R.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by john ruston

By the way Messrs H and S used a 26 R.

I remember that race; that car was the only one that could ride both exit kerbs from the old bus stop without missing a beat, everyone else had a lift. Very impressive.

[john ruston]

Why?

The reduction in lap times in the 6 hrs will eventually ruin what is the most exciting race in Historic Racing.

The arms race at front end of grid is nonsense .

If people want to spend that type of money on a old farts race why not do moderns to
Show you cannot or can succeed .
Bit like kicking you grandad.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by john ruston

the continued arms race in all forms of historic circuit racing will kill the pastime.

Originally Posted by john ruston

The reduction in lap times in the 6 hrs will eventually ruin what is the most exciting race in Historic Racing.

The arms race at front end of grid is nonsense .

I know this sounds like a bit of a plug (which it is I guess) and we are not alone, but FISCAR are trying to stem that flow in our area of racing. Given that it one of the cornerstones of our club, it nevertheless remains pretty difficult getting the cars to come out on a consistent or regular basis because there are so many clashes of meetings. Owners still prefer to go to the bigger meetings with all the attached kudos whether or not they are on an even playing field.

[terence]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Why?

The reduction in lap times in the 6 hrs will eventually ruin what is the most exciting race in Historic Racing.

The arms race at front end of grid is nonsense .

If people want to spend that type of money on a old farts race why not do moderns to
Show you cannot or can succeed .
Bit like kicking you grandad.

Totally agree and precisely my point John.I also agree with Clives points,the owners of these various cars are killing the Historic in Historic Racing-for what purpose? Sheer stupidity comes to mind!

[Peter Mallett]

John,

I agree with you, just think we've done it to death and nothing changes. So I'll hive these posts out and set up a new thread.

[Peter Mallett]

As I said I agree with John R that an arms race is not good for anyone. But there may be another issue here. Use of better materials than were available in period may be a cheaper solution and also mean the cars remain on track longer. Trying to source or re manufacture original spec components can be prohibitively expensive and if you don't have the means to do it yourself, you have to pay someone. In turn the costs become prohibitive anyway. A self fulfilling prophesy which ultimately would lead to many people giving up.

Then when an organiser such as Masters announces that entrants can replace old style ignition with electronic, thus permitting the use of rev limiters, the purists among us get aeriated. Yet this is one relatively cheap way of making sure the cars remain on the grids.

Personally I don't advocate the constant development of the cars, but development isn't cheating unless the components used change the characteristics of the car either dynamically or dimensionally (oversized engines etc.).

But ultimately, if we the competitors think someone is cheating then its pointless moaning on here, we should protest the vehicle in question.

As to whether a car is historic or not? This surely depends on its provenance. Then again many of our famous historic racing cars no doubt have an element of "Grandfather's watch" in them.

[FastDB2s]

Maybe its time to close it from sportscars and make it under 2ltrs Saloons for a undisclosed period of time, then open it back up to sportscars again when those get too hot to handle, or something different from what it is now.

[terence]

A little too bold a thing for Alaine and vincent to take on,dont forget they make a very good living out the farce.

[Robyn Slater]

The way i see it,...... racing = development, ......be it car or driver.

Build/develop a car within a set of regs then police the regs.

If you don't like it walk away,there's plenty of museums to visit.

[AdamSinger]

I am late to this thread but as a historic racer I agree with John this is going to damage the sport. Is it really so hard to regulate. I am under the impression (maybe wrongly) that modern GT3 and GT4 racing has pretty strict power to weight ratio rules, enforced with an accelerometer. In other words if some one shoots ahead more than they did last season its registered by the accelerometer, and ballast is applied to bring it back into line. Thus tuning becomes a zero sum game. I admit I am not too hampered by knowledge on this, but mention it as the more experienced among you might be able to offer further insight. After all the point of historic racing is you are buying a snapshot in time, and the more you develop, the more you are not of the time you have bought.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by AdamSinger

After all the point of historic racing is you are buying a snapshot in time, and the more you develop, the more you are not of the time you have bought.

I don't entirely agree with this but it is a good point well made. I feel that where modern materials of the same tolerance and dimensions are used then all that is doing is making the vehicles reliable. And with reliability should come more competitors.

As to the balance of your post I think that refers to the oversized/out of spec element and with which I wholeheartedly agree.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

..........where modern materials of the same tolerance and dimensions are used then all that is doing is making the vehicles reliable. ........

but it's not all is it? if it's stronger or stiffer or whatever, it'll allow more revs or cope with the forces of stickier tyres etc, hence it's making them faster....

[john ruston]

It's not what is sporting or non sporting its what can make historic racing more accessible to a wider circle of interested people.

I don't consider it cheating on basis that all the front runners can throw buckets full of dosh at car development so its even for top handful of cars but in my opinion has a detrimental effect on the rest of the historic racing world.

Pity ,it was a great hobby but getting to the situation where because of what is being allowed makes it not worth bothering with.

[Mike Bell]

Bumped into John Miles at Snetterton today, and he was not surprised a 26R placed so well at Spa. He was impressed that it lasted 6hrs, though! He knows that the cars he drove were 160bhp, a figure that most twin cam people would expect to better nowadays?

[zefarelly]

Quite agree John.

race engines are lifed . . . . 1-2 years seems to be what most of us mere mortals require from our budgets . . . 3-4 hours is not unheard of however.

Originally Posted by john ruston

It's not what is sporting or non sporting its what can make historic racing more accessible to a wider circle of interested people.

I don't consider it cheating on basis that all the front runners can throw buckets full of dosh at car development so its even for top handful of cars but in my opinion has a detrimental effect on the rest of the historic racing world.

Pity ,it was a great hobby but getting to the situation where because of what is being allowed makes it not worth bothering with.

[simon drabble]

There is no doubt that cars are getting quicker but interestingly it seems MGB's have stabilized and now it's the turn of E Types. The quickest one this year qualified with 2-47 some 3 seconds quicker than the Minshaw car. By way of comparison back 2005 JR's Merlyn qualified on pole with 2-49 and we were 4th on the grid with 2-56.....

As others have said if the race becomes to much of an arms race the bulk of entrants will fall away. I don't profess to know the answer but I will be very sad if it becomes a race that is pointless for us clubbies!