Can anyone clarify the pre-'77 rule for using HANS?

[Paul D]

As per thread title - having read the MSA guidance on this, it simply states that if your car is pre-'77, then HANS isn't (yet!) compulsory.

So, what's the situation if you have a car (as I do) of a model type that spans that date, so could be either pre or post-'77? As many race cars don't have any kind of documentation to prove their age (no V5 for mine), then who decides if I must wear a HANS or not?

Anyone had any experience of this yet at scrutineering? Is the onus on me to prove the car is pre-'77 if I don't want to wear a HANS, or is it for the officials to prove it's post-'77 if they want to make me wear one?

Can't find an answer to this anywhere, and really can't see how it could be proved either way for many cars, but I wonder if there's a default position for such situations? Anyone know?

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by Paul D

As per thread title - having read the MSA guidance on this, it simply states that if your car is pre-'77, then HANS isn't (yet!) compulsory.

So, what's the situation if you have a car (as I do) of a model type that spans that date, so could be either pre or post-'77? As many race cars don't have any kind of documentation to prove their age (no V5 for mine), then who decides if I must wear a HANS or not?

Anyone had any experience of this yet at scrutineering? Is the onus on me to prove the car is pre-'77 if I don't want to wear a HANS, or is it for the officials to prove it's post-'77 if they want to make me wear one?

Can't find an answer to this anywhere, and really can't see how it could be proved either way for many cars, but I wonder if there's a default position for such situations? Anyone know?

I suppose its a bit easier for Older historics but a bit of a minefield for those who are driving models which span the year? I think the onus is on the driver to document that the car was manufactured / registered before the cut off date.
I recently got this clarified from my eligibility scrutineer:

The regs are written as such for my championship.

5.3.12 Frontal head restraints
Frontal Head Restraints are mandatory & must comply with MSA Regulations
K10.4 &Q10.1 (e)

I will be taking a copy of my logbook to the track..

Technically if you don't have a log book then your car could be classed as a replica and fall under the requirement to mandate FHR's, being that the build date of your car is of a later date using parts from various models??

N.

[Paul D]

Thanks Heightswitch! Was that from the Swinging Sixties scrutineer? If so, then how can he say they're mandatory when, by definition, every car in Swinging Sixties must have been manufactured before the cut-off date?

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by Paul D

Thanks Heightswitch! Was that from the Swinging Sixties scrutineer? If so, then how can he say they're mandatory when, by definition, every car in Swinging Sixties must have been manufactured before the cut-off date?

No that was for DDMC, NSSCC. Swinging 60's may be a tad simpler because the series is more historic in nature. I think though that the onus still sits with the driver to prove the car is of that year… I think the minefield will open further when people get into build dates versus registration dates!!

The regs had initially written as mandatory for all cars and I requested the clarification upon which the regs were amended to correctly allow for the exemption depending upon the nomenclatures etc.

Still plenty in swinging 60's that could span the years…Scimitar springs to mind.


N.

[Paul D]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

Sounds like I may be up sh*t creek then, unless a pre-'77 V5 magically appears for my car...

[Heightswitch]

Just been reading P58 this years Blue book.

H- cars BUILT between 1 jan 1972 and 31 dec 1976 that are no longer eligible for current competition..

I guess you could read that a number of ways…one being if it was built as a vehicle beyond the 1976 cut off then you have to use FHR !! Or I guess if it spans the years then a V5 proving its build date..

If you have a chassis number then a heritage cert perhaps which will give a build date??

[JimW]

Why not just wear one and enjoy the safety benefits, be ahead of any extension and avoid any possible argument at scrutineering?

Jim

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by JimW

Why not just wear one and enjoy the safety benefits, be ahead of any extension and avoid any possible argument at scrutineering?

Jim

This.

[Moosehead]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

This.

Possibly because if you need a new helmet too then you're looking at £1k which to me would be nearly three race entry fees. If like me you're on a tight budget then spending that money on something you've done without previously could be the difference between racing this year and not.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Possibly because if you need a new helmet too then you're looking at £1k which to me would be nearly three race entry fees. If like me you're on a tight budget then spending that money on something you've done without previously could be the difference between racing this year and not.

Bit of an exaggeration there, Moose! A quick look in the DT catalogue (not the cheapest but had it close to hand) finds a Snell/FIA helmet plus an FIA HANS at £400 plus the VAT, so still under £500.
If one went to Autosport or Race Retro there were decent deals on offer, so could get a better / lighter combination for the same price.

[NICK ALLISON]

The Simpson hybrid FHR may work in this case?

[Peter Mallett]

Possibly and I'm not disagreeing with you but we do know the consequences of accidents where injury or worse could have been avoided in an accident. So, just because it says you don't have to wear one, it doesn't mean you don't need one.

[Newall Andy]

Ive just had a massive shunt at Phillip Island... driving an M8F it took off at around 180 MPH and hit the pit wall with one hell of a bang.
Busted ribs, lacerated liver, lungs all bashed about, even lost my voice which a fair few people smiled at.

Being the kind of driver who never wears anything other than an old T shirt under my race gear and hard pushed to use a balaclava one things for sure without the enforcement of the VHRR to wear a HANS theres no way id be here now... fact !.

The impact was massive, moved all my internal organs and gave me a massive wake up call in the process, ill never, ever race again without one.

I hate the things and the restricted movement has always peed me off.... not anymore.

Im here for one reason only and thats a HANS.

Andy Newall.

[John Turner]

And that, I think, says it all!

[midgetman]

There are people around who can supply FIA-spec full face helmet and HANS for well under £500 including the VAT. Ahem. And UK-spec for a tenner less. Ahem.

[Paul D]

For me, the cost of all this safety equipment is not the only issue, although it is one of them.

But personally, it's about freedom of choice too. As an occasional racer, I'm already p*ssed off at the fact that I have to bin perfectly serviceable helmets, harnesses, etc even when they've only done a handful of races. I'm really not keen to add HANS devices to that list. Yes, I know they're not lifed - but I reckon that's only a matter of time - it's coming!

Also, and at the risk of being shot down in flames here, but I'm not entirely convinced of their validity for the average club racer. Yes, if you're racing cars capable of almost 200 mph, then I can see the point in them, but for us club racers travelling around at half that speed, I think the type of crash where a HANS will benefit you is pretty rare. Not saying it can't happen, just that it's rare to have that kind of shunt on a racetrack at those lower speeds. I've had my fair share of shunts over the years, some at fairly high speed (relative to the speeds I could be travelling at), but I can honestly say that in all those crashes, not once would wearing a HANS have made any difference whatsoever.

I guess what I'm saying is that we all know motorsport is dangerous - it's part of the attraction to a point - and I think we should all be allowed (within reason) to make our own decisions as to what we feel is an acceptable level of risk, bearing in mind the type of cars we drive and the speeds attained. If this constant nannying is allowed to continue, then ultimately, the only conclusion that can be reached is that the only way to make motorsport 100% safe is to not allow it at all! After all, that is the only way you can guarantee nobody gets injured.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Paul D

Also, and at the risk of being shot down in flames here, but I'm not entirely convinced of their validity for the average club racer. Yes, if you're racing cars capable of almost 200 mph, then I can see the point in them, but for us club racers travelling around at half that speed, I think the type of crash where a HANS will benefit you is pretty rare. Not saying it can't happen, just that it's rare to have that kind of shunt on a racetrack at those lower speeds. I've had my fair share of shunts over the years, some at fairly high speed (relative to the speeds I could be travelling at), but I can honestly say that in all those crashes, not once would wearing a HANS have made any difference whatsoever.

As a marshal I can assure you that the type of crash where HANS (or FHR - HANS is not the only type available) can be of benefit DOES happen in club racing. The potential speed of the car, the level of competition, ability of the driver are all irrelevant - inertia doesn't discriminate!

I've seen a club level FF driver in a neck brace, the sort of cage that's attached to the bones in the shoulder, for the best part of a year as the result of a head-on crash into a tyre wall, & several lesser but still painful neck injuries, all of which would almost certainly have been avoided by the use of FHR.

When I first started marshalling, pre-FHR, it was common even in what looked like innocuous impacts for the driver to be complaining of pain consistent with C-spine injuries; since the advent of FHR those injuries (for HANS users) are very rare - I'd almost go so far as to say non-existent.

In my opinion FHR is the biggest advance in motor racing safety in recent years. . . no way would I race without one! (Lack of talent is a more serious stumbling block!)

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by midgetman

There are people around who can supply FIA-spec full face helmet and HANS for well under £500 including the VAT. Ahem. And UK-spec for a tenner less. Ahem.

I second that and the so called cheap Snell homologated helmet I have is far more comfortable than any of the expensive ones I've had.

[midgetman]

I completely agree with your last paragraph, and have said so many times on here. But there will not be a change in the MSA's attitude on this and one either has to follow the rules or leave the sport. As you know, it is my fear that there will be a number of the latter and fewer of the former joining.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I completely agree with your last paragraph, and have said so many times on here. But there will not be a change in the MSA's attitude on this and one either has to follow the rules or leave the sport. As you know, it is my fear that there will be a number of the latter and fewer of the former joining.

The attitude certainly doesn't make it particularly easy for the average working class bloke on a budget....I am well over £2k spent this year on additional things (not all safety related admittedly) and that's before entry of the first race!!

N.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Paul D

F
But personally, it's about freedom of choice too. As an occasional racer, I'm already p*ssed off at the fact that I have to bin perfectly serviceable helmets, harnesses, etc even when they've only done a handful of races. I'm really not keen to add HANS devices to that list. Yes, I know they're not lifed - but I reckon that's only a matter of time - it's coming!

Also, and at the risk of being shot down in flames here, but I'm not entirely convinced of their validity for the average club racer. Yes, if you're racing cars capable of almost 200 mph, then I can see the point in them, but for us club racers travelling around at half that speed, I think the type of crash where a HANS will benefit you is pretty rare. Not saying it can't happen, just that it's rare to have that kind of shunt on a racetrack at those lower speeds. I've had my fair share of shunts over the years, some at fairly high speed (relative to the speeds I could be travelling at), but I can honestly say that in all those crashes, not once would wearing a HANS have made any difference whatsoever.

I guess what I'm saying is that we all know motorsport is dangerous - it's part of the attraction to a point - and I think we should all be allowed (within reason) to make our own decisions as to what we feel is an acceptable level of risk, bearing in mind the type of cars we drive and the speeds attained. If this constant nannying is allowed to continue, then ultimately, the only conclusion that can be reached is that the only way to make motorsport 100% safe is to not allow it at all! After all, that is the only way you can guarantee nobody gets injured.

Sadly we only have to look at poor Christian Devereux three years ago. He was driving a mini.

Originally Posted by midgetman

I completely agree with your last paragraph, and have said so many times on here. But there will not be a change in the MSA's attitude on this and one either has to follow the rules or leave the sport. As you know, it is my fear that there will be a number of the latter and fewer of the former joining.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Heightswitch

The attitude certainly doesn't make it particularly easy for the average working class bloke on a budget....I am well over £2k spent this year on additional things (not all safety related admittedly) and that's before entry of the first race!!

N.

Without wishing to sound patronizing although this probably does, the fact is that if there is something that will make it 90% certain that you can go out and earn money the day after having the accident, then it is good value. Thus it will be easier to repair the car than replace you.

I agree that lifing and all that stuff comes into play and it is not cheap but the entire sport is expensive and if that's what we have chosen then so be it. My advice to anyone is to get the best safety gear you can, including roll cages, brakes, clothing etc. then worry about how fast the car goes.

We've all been there, racing on bank loans etc.

[andy97]

I have said this on here before but it's worth repeating; a racer died last year in Scotland from a basal skull fracture incurred in a ministox race where the impact was assessed to be approx 40 mph.

An FHR may well have prevented that. Why take the risk for <£500?

[Mike Harte]

It all comes down to the rhetorical question of 'what price/value do you place on personal safety?'.

[Peter Mallett]

But it's not personal safety. It's the impact on your family and friends.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

But it's not personal safety. It's the impact on your family and friends.

Peter, to me the two go hand in hand.