[Team] Scuderia Toro Rosso: Now with HONDA

[knighty]

There is now a lot of rumblings that this may happen in 2018.....with the possibility of Honda also buying TR completely some time in the future.

Then you look around and you think who would Honda want to run it?......well their old mate Ron Dennis is currently twiddling his thumbs and sold all his McLaren shares, I cannot see him being idle for too long, he is the sort of person that always bounces back, and he has Hondas ear and is trusted by them.

I also read one of the issues that finally scuppered the Sauber-Honda deal is Mclaren were not prepared to share their gearbox, probably as Sauber were historically too close to Ferrari.......but they might with RorroRosso if then know Ron is involved.....hmmmm

One to watch for sure.....

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by knighty

Then you look around and you think who would Honda want to run it?......well their old mate Ron Dennis is currently twiddling his thumbs and sold all his McLaren shares, I cannot see him being idle for too long, he is the sort of person that always bounces back, and he has Hondas ear and is trusted by them.

Being pedantic, but McLaren haven't purchased all of Dennis' shares, yet. They are taking them back in tranches, and are having to raise the money to do so. They recently started the process, and have secured funding for the first tranche by using around 19 of the past race cars in their collection as collateral for the loan.

So often nothing in F1 is quite as it seems.

[knighty]

good article here on the BBC, pretty much sums up both the driver and engine market for 2018 quite well

RedBull are dead keen for Torro Rosso to have the Honda motor, so when it turns good they can put it in the RedBull as the main works Honda team.

McLaren are chasing Renault deal quite hard

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/40776162

[Akrapovic]

So Red Bull have a good engine, but they want a bad engine just in case it becomes good.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

So Red Bull have a good engine, but they want a bad engine just in case it becomes good.

being just "good" in F1 is not enough......they need a "better" engine......and if theres a slim chance of a better engine for free, then why not take the chance with your feeder team.......sound logic to me......so Renault would swap engines from TorroRosso over to McLaren......everyones a winner......and I'm sure the Renault will become "better" quicker than the Honda, so McLaren will be laughing quite soon

But there is still Mario Illien (Ilmor) in the background.....if McLaren have any sense they will use Renault temporarily for 1-2 years, but find Ilmor a partner to pay his bills......then they have an exclusive engine from F1's best engine genius......he absolutely understands turbo engines better than anyone

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by knighty

....sound logic to me......so Renault would swap engines from TorroRosso over to McLaren......everyones a winner......and I'm sure the Renault will become "better" quicker than the Honda, so McLaren will be laughing quite soon

Probably makes sense to Mac but surely not to Renault ? I think it's fair to say that Mac's chassis is better the Renaults, so, why then, other than the money of course, would Renault want to supply yet another team, as well as Red Bull, with an engine that would ultimately allow that team to do better in the constructors championship ?

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Probably makes sense to Mac but surely not to Renault ? I think it's fair to say that Mac's chassis is better the Renaults, so, why then, other than the money of course, would Renault want to supply yet another team, as well as Red Bull, with an engine that would ultimately allow that team to do better in the constructors championship ?

Im thinking 2 reasons

1) money and extra R&D revenue for the main renault team.....Renault are on a budget, and Carlos Gohsn is midnful of cosst running away, so extra revenue from McLaren would be welcome, much like it is to Ferreri for customer engine deals
2) it gives Renault a chassis performance benchmark to compare and chase.

Renault could easily give RedBull and McLared B-spec engines with just 10-20bhp less power than the main factory Renault team, so everyone would be competitive, but the main Renault team just that bit more faster

[marcel82]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

So Red Bull have a good engine

"good" being a relative term here. without Honda, we'd all think the Renault is a horrible engine. only 1 Renault-powered car (Kvyat) did not get a PU-related grid penalty in Italy.

And the reliability is... well, just ask Max.

in fact, switching Honda for Renault is the dumbest move ever, imo. Honda have been struggling for 3 years, Renault for 5. And while Honda is clearly showing improvement, Renault is going backwards. only RBR seems to be able to keep their level of performance.

[S griffin]

Let's hope the reliability improves, or it won't be good for rising stars in the STR team, having it break down all the time

[GTRMagic]

Still doesn't explain if RBR have a veto clause over McLaren getting the Renault engine

I wouldn't mind betting they do...

[F1Guy]

Why do we need a thread on this when it's already being discussed in the silly season thread?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Why do we need a thread on this when it's already being discussed in the silly season thread?

I guess the OP feels that this story warrants a thread of its own, rather than being mixed in with the generic 2018 stories and rumours?

Why does anything need a thread - surely we can just have one F1 thread and talk about everything in that?

[crmalcolm]

Italian press are increasingly reporting that a deal with Honda is likely.

Roberto Chinchero reports that Sainz is ready to leave STR, and that Nobuharu Matsushita is being lined up by Honda to take his place.

The apparent pause in drivers moving form STR to RB is being identified as making STR as less relevant for junior driver programme, and more relevant as a test bed and contractual pawn.

[Paradise City]

I don't see Ron Dennis being involved in anything. But it does make perfect sense for Honda to evolve out of the media spotlight with a 2nd fiddle team. And if the project comes good, RBR is back with a works program, if it doesn't RBR can stick with the powerplants it has and things stay as they were. Or/and STR gets taken off their hands by Honda. Whichever.

So a STR Honda is a win or break-even arrangement for Red Bull.

[GTRMagic]

A lazy couple of hundred million dollars thrown at a program with a team with only one grand prix win, and never usually close enough to the top 5 let alone any higher, seems a massive step down from the world famous McLaren connection..

Forza Minardi...

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

A lazy couple of hundred million dollars thrown at a program with a team with only one grand prix win, and never usually close enough to the top 5 let alone any higher, seems a massive step down from the world famous McLaren connection..

Forza Minardi...

Of the two (Torro Rosso and Honda), I'd say Honda is the weakest link.

[Nikki Katz]

Not happening in 2018 https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...talks-collapse

[S griffin]

Saw that too, seems Honda's best hope of a second team is to bring back Super Aguri

[peebee2]

Red Bull are smart operators as the only way McLaren would get Renault is if an existing Renault team left The Regie. Hence STR no change.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Red Bull are smart operators as the only way McLaren would get Renault is if an existing Renault team left The Regie. Hence STR no change.

It seems Honda and McLaren may both still be pushing to make this happen.

http://amp.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/mclaren/news/mclaren-renault-waiting-for-toro-rosso-decision_306537.html

Honda's comments suggest that they need to move to another team in order to stay in F1, and could that force them to buy their way in?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It seems Honda and McLaren may both still be pushing to make this happen.

http://amp.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-...on_306537.html

Honda's comments suggest that they need to move to another team in order to stay in F1, and could that force them to buy their way in?

There is a few threads discussing the same topic. But I think that article sums up the issue. Red Bull IMHO holds all the cards in these negotiations. The question is what are they looking for from both McLaren and Honda to make this work?

* Money from Honda?
* Driver choice (Honda not pushing drivers on TR)
* Data from McLaren?

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

The question is what are they looking for from both McLaren and Honda to make this work?

* Money from Honda?
* Driver choice (Honda not pushing drivers on TR)
* Data from McLaren?

And also, what are Honda looking for?
At the moment they supply a team and fund a driver.
Do they want more?
Do they only want to provide engines, or do they want a team?
Was the McLaren deal a route for them to bring future drivers into F1?
Have they given up trying to compete under current regs, but want a stake in controlling the next ones?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

And also, what are Honda looking for?
At the moment they supply a team and fund a driver.
Do they want more?
Do they only want to provide engines, or do they want a team?
Was the McLaren deal a route for them to bring future drivers into F1?
Have they given up trying to compete under current regs, but want a stake in controlling the next ones?

Good question as to what Honda wants. I think Honda first wants a lifebuoy to be tossed to them so they can remain in the sport. Based upon prior comments from Hasegawa, it sounds like its unlikely Honda wants to control a team right now. Maybe later. So I would put their list at...

1. Stay in F1
2. Success with the engine
3. Full return as team owner.

With each stage contingent upon the success of the previous. I wouldn't put them buying into a partial stake in TR being out of the question, but I would be shocked if they were to fully take over the team at this point. I have no clue if Honda wants to push specific drivers or not.

Richard

[VIVA GT]

I thought that we were in the middle of an enforced break, and NOTHING is supposed to be happening in Formula One at the moment?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I thought that we were in the middle of an enforced break, and NOTHING is supposed to be happening in Formula One at the moment?

If only that meant that all those team principals like Horner would keep their mouths shut. Unfortunately, it is only the workshops/teams that are on their summer hols.