[Rumours] Porsche & Volkswagen Group considering entering F1

[crmalcolm]

Porsche and parent company the Volkswagen Group are considering entering Formula 1.

'VAG is said to have had initial exploratory talks with three teams - Red Bull, McLaren and Williams.'

[Richard C]

Can we just get a list of everyone who F1 has engaged with regarding the potential for joining F1 in 2025? I expect two things. First, while small, it would include a number of manufacturers who are not providing power units. Second, not all of them will pull the trigger on jumping into F1. I guess my point is.. Isn't someone at the major manufacturers always looking at F1? Is this even really newsworthy at this point?

I own a Porsche 914 that I have been slowly restoring. Each year, for at least a decade, if not longer, fans of the car post articles that say Porsche is thinking of bringing forward a new 914. Its like clockwork. Sometimes twice a year.

Richard

[JHamilton]

They've been considering it my whole life.

[Moneyseeker]

You would say Red Bull would be favourite, they have heavily sponsored a wide range of VAG motorsport for years and of course they will have the in house capability to design and develop the new engine in partnership with VAG engineers.

The brand people at Porsche might see McLaren as too much of a direct competitor on the road cars and confusing message if it was a McLaren-Porsche, but OK if Audi brand gets the nod.

All a long way off and a lot can happen in that time, as we have seen in 2020, sadly.

[chillibowl]

i feel like this is the typical annual story that floats around the start of every new F1 season.

in a week or two i suspect someone else from VAG will sound off on how F1 makes no sense.

who knows though, maybe it will be different this time. im a bit hopeful that with Alfa, AMR and Alpine in the mix, the branding needs for niche brands are taking the stage over the major manus/we are in the process of a new paradigm in F1...the end of the manu era.

[steve_r]

There have been numerous stories about VAG entering F1 over the last 20 years - and there is always one thing in common with all the rumours: It never actually happens.

This years rumour is related to someone from Porshe being interested in the Engine Regulation discussions. So, there actually may be something behind it. Or it could be the usual nonsense.

I'm glad we have a thread for it, so that it can be resurrected each time a new unsubstantiated rumour about VAG emerges!

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by steve_r

There have been numerous stories about VAG entering F1 over the last 20 years - and there is always one thing in common with all the rumours: It never actually happens.

This years rumour is related to someone from Porshe being interested in the Engine Regulation discussions. So, there actually may be something behind it. Or it could be the usual nonsense.

I'm glad we have a thread for it, so that it can be resurrected each time a new unsubstantiated rumour about VAG emerges!

I think some of the story comes from rumours that VAG may sell a stake in, or all of Porsche, to fund future EV model development.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

I think some of the story comes from rumours that VAG may sell a stake in, or all of Porsche, to fund future EV model development.

Not impossible but don’t forget it was Porsche who bought VW and not the other way around.

And also don’t forget that a major part of the reason was to balance emissions across a much wider pool.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Not impossible but don’t forget it was Porsche who bought VW and not the other way around.

And also don’t forget that a major part of the reason was to balance emissions across a much wider pool.

Porsche tried to buy VAG but failed and racked up 10m euro's in debt trying and ended up being bought by VAG.

[Richard C]

Misunderstanding of the VAG/Porsche ownership comes up occasionally here. If I remember correctly Porsche AG got caught in a short squeeze when then Porsche AG CEO drove Porsche AG to try to buy VAG. The attempt sort of worked, left Porsche AG with 15 B debt load that was not anticipated. To settle the debt and prevent bankruptcy of Porsche, VAG bought Porsche AG and covered the debt. (I may have some details wrong, but basically that was it)

What is less commonly talked about is Porsche SE which is a holding controlled by the Porsche and Piech family. Porsche SE holds a controlling interest in VAG. So Porsche/Piech family own VAG who owns Porsche Automobile.

Who knows what is in the minds of the Porsche/Piech family, but I have a hard time imagining them selling off the original family brand. If anything, maybe they take Porsche private again by pulling it out of VAG. Do this by pulling in a partner, provide funds to VAG, but still maintain a controlling interest in both.

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Porsche tried to buy VAG but failed and racked up 10m euro's in debt trying and ended up being bought by VAG.

A common misunderstanding.

Porsche AG is certainly owned by VAG.

But then a controlling stake in VAG is owned by Porsche Automobil Holding SE which is majority owned by the Porsche family.

So Porsche owns VAG and not the other way around.

[P38 in workshop]

Consider also that there are persistent rumours that Bugatti might be sold to Rimac.On the other hand Volkswagen have withdrawn from piston engined motorsport since they see the future being electric.Might a possibility be that they would develop an engine if a partner commissioned and funded it?

[S griffin]

I don't think we'll see Porsche back in F1, they probably will always be more concerned with sportscars. That's how I see it

[S griffin]

I wouldn’t rule out VAG competing in F1, I’ve always thought it would be good if Audi came in and even if it hasn’t happened, I think there’s a fair chance of it happening. As for Porsche, I see them as sort of a black sheep of the VAG family. They probably benefit a lot from VAG funding, but they pretty much go their own way despite that, as they always have done

But yeah, we’ll wait and see what happens. Porsche will probably only do it if it suits them and I can’t see it happening. They will only do it if it doesn’t impact largely on their sportscar budget. That’s probably why they haven’t done it yet. So there you go. That’s my view

[P38 in workshop]

I believe the largest shareholding in VAG was in the control of the Bank of Lower Saxony.Would they countenance shovelling such large amounts of cash in the direction of motorsport?Or would they direct it to designing and engineering cars that keep the production lines moving and their account holders in gainful employment?We shall see.

[S griffin]

There’s got to be something behind it. We’ll just have to see if they go through with it this time. But I am still hopeful of seeing the Audi name in the championnship

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

There’s got to be something behind it. We’ll just have to see if they go through with it this time. But I am still hopeful of seeing the Audi name in the championnship

The article above says it started with a BBC Sport article. Which I think is this one...

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/56272450

Porsche Motorsport vice-president Fritz Enzinger told BBC Sport: "It would be of great interest if aspects of sustainability - for instance, the implementation of e-fuels - play a role in this.

"Should these aspects be confirmed, we will evaluate them in detail within the VW Group and discuss further steps."

To me, the above quote is the heart of this which again is basically that it is the job of the motorsport part of the business to pay attention to these things. What is missing from the article is "why" they were talking to Enzinger. Did Enzinger want to push this topic (i.e. VAG/Porsche are looking to stir the pot publicly), or did it just come up during something like (like at a presentation on some other Porsche motorsport activity and he was just asked about F1 and gave a canned response).

Also, clear the new technical regulations (which F1 is working on right now) drives this. If that discussion was not happening, I doubt we would be hearing so much about the potential for new manufactures. And clearly the new regulations IS an opportunity to bring new manufactures into F1.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Apparently a decision by VAG will probably be made this month, and if they enter it may be as both Porsche and Audi-branded engines.

'New Porsche Motorsport managing director Thomas Laudenbach has said it is “not a secret we are seriously considering” an F1 programme.
“There’s no decision made yet,” said Laudenbach. “So if you asked if we will be there or not, I don’t know.
“But we are considering it, and we will have a decision. But I can’t really say exactly when.
“One thing is clear, if such a decision is made, you can’t wait too long.
“Because if you want to race in 2025, or 2026, you have to start at a certain time.”

[S griffin]

I won't hold my breath, we've been waiting long enough for them. TBH if Porsche were to enter F1, I feel they should have already have, but we'll see. I will watch with interest. Who will they go with for starters? Will F1 still fit their agenda down the line? That said Audi can always give it a try, there's a brand that could easily have had success in F1....

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I won't hold my breath, we've been waiting long enough for them. TBH if Porsche were to enter F1, I feel they should have already have, but we'll see. I will watch with interest. Who will they go with for starters? Will F1 still fit their agenda down the line? That said Audi can always give it a try, there's a brand that could easily have had success in F1....

Is there a reason why Audi could have more success than Porsche?

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Is there a reason why Audi could have more success than Porsche?

Because Audi drivers are very very good and following other cars very very closely. And F1 needs cars that can follow each other closely.








Or some other similar joke about Audis on motorways.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I won't hold my breath, we've been waiting long enough for them. TBH if Porsche were to enter F1, I feel they should have already have, but we'll see. I will watch with interest. Who will they go with for starters? Will F1 still fit their agenda down the line? That said Audi can always give it a try, there's a brand that could easily have had success in F1....

I guess Porsche having previously success is what exactly? And having more relevant experience with smaller petrol engine hybrid over a diesel? Oh, and likely to be exactly the same engine as with the LMDh program. So why would Audi be more likely to have success?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I won't hold my breath, we've been waiting long enough for them. TBH if Porsche were to enter F1, I feel they should have already have, but we'll see. I will watch with interest. Who will they go with for starters? Will F1 still fit their agenda down the line? That said Audi can always give it a try, there's a brand that could easily have had success in F1....

If only somehow Porsche and Audi had been previously involved in GP racing...





I am mostly poking fun at you as I assume you meant "modern F1". And even then, VERY modern as for Porsche you have the 1962 winning car and then world championship winning TAG Porsche engine in the mid 1980's

I am puzzled by the comment that alludes that somehow Audi might do better than Porsche in F1. I generally would think that both have quite a bit of recent top tier motorsports experience. Including building hybrid engines with very high combustion efficiency.

I think the main thing that might have worn on people (myself included) is the perpetual rumor that Porsche is looking to do F1. Which be it Porsche, Audi or VAG in general. Seems to be very true at the moment.

Richard

[chillibowl]

coming in with two new works teams seems overly ambitious so if they just came in as an engine manu then it would be with one engine with different branding right?

thus their success would be contingent on which team they supply.

that begs the question which two teams would/could take on VAG engines?

now days, Haas, Williams, Alfa, and Aston require an engine supply that comes with a bunch of other parts so unless VAG is going to be a works team and can supply said parts then those teams cant take a VAG engine on its own.

retooling/restaffing under the budget cap makes going back to full constructor status incredibly difficult without overspending the cap (still dont really know what happens if one overspends though).

Mclaren will stay with Merc as thats a long term deal iirc. Merc, Alpine, and Ferrari will stay works teams. even if Merc pulls out, they are contractually obligated to be an engine manu for a while so their supply will be around until the next Concorde period i would guess.

that just leaves the RB teams and the possibility that VAG comes in as a partner for the RB engine program.

and VAG could have tried to make that play before if they wanted to but didnt. why would RB take them on now that RB seem to have gotten the engine rules that suit their needs? even less so if they win a title this year.

anyways, like most i await optimistically, but really i am expecting the inevitable VAG statement about how pants F1 is lol.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

coming in with two new works teams seems overly ambitious so if they just came in as an engine manu then it would be with one engine with different branding right?

Most likely.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

that begs the question which two teams would/could take on VAG engines?

It seems that VAG would buy at least one team. It's also not clear if they want one or more brands in F1. So lets say VAG makes the leap. They may just pick a brand (lets say Porsche) and label the power unit as Porsche. Maybe the same for the team. They could supply a second team with a power unit and just relabel that. Such a Red Bull powered by Audi. But still using the same Porsche engine as the Porsche F1 team.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

that just leaves the RB teams and the possibility that VAG comes in as a partner for the RB engine program.

and VAG could have tried to make that play before if they wanted to but didnt. why would RB take them on now that RB seem to have gotten the engine rules that suit their needs? even less so if they win a title this year.

Only RB knows, but I tend to think they are keeping their options open. They have solved their problem through end of 2025. But being part of the 2026 power unit negotiations allows them to push to keep the solution simple enough that they could build their own if they needed to do so. And they are building up their powertrain division now to support that. But, they keep their options open to potentially partner with VAG or maybe even a potential return by Honda.

Richard