Dallara takes California

FastJoel31 · 24 Mar 2002, 01:16 (Ref:242601)

I just got done watching the California Grand-Am race, the Doran Dallara of Didier Theys and Fredy Lienhard Jr. won. The Dallara and the Dyson Crawford swapped for the lead pretty much all race. Chris Dyson brought about a second place finish by spinning 4 times in the Crawford. The Rand Racing Lola won the SRPII class again, but the G&W Picchio showed that it wasn't going to be compared to the D*****. It's new engines, developed by PTG, allowed the car to run with the Lola of Rand. GTS was won by the Park Place Saleen, GT by the Racer's Group Porsche, and the AGT calss was won by some corvette. Horriby low entry, I might add.

Dr. Austin · 24 Mar 2002, 02:10 (Ref:242619)

Two SRP cars. A two car race. what a thrill. whoopie.

I had high hopes for the GrandAm after Daytona, and I didn't expect the same bumper crop to show up every week, but TWO cars? I hope it was just the some teams wouldn't make the long trip out there, but even at that it looks like the rest of the year is going to be a snooze. Why did they even take the SRP's off the trailer? Just flip a coin and save the wear and rear on the gear.

Lee Janotta · 24 Mar 2002, 18:25 (Ref:242960)

This is the best we can do for a GP course in southern California?! Gah, makes the Long Beach GP course look absolutely brilliant! THIS IS SUPPOSED TO REPLACE RIVERSIDE?! HERECY!!!

Can't someone _please_ build Buttonwillow or Willow Springs into an acceptable venue for a pro series?

Yeah, I get the politics about Grand Am racing on tracks NASCAR controls.

Dr. Austin · 24 Mar 2002, 19:15 (Ref:242985)

As far as a "roval," this is the best one I have seen. But you are right that Willow Springs would make a nice venue.
Watching the R8 Come down the hill from turn four would be awesome.

Unless someone wants to step up with the millions and millions, this is just going to have to be better than nothing.

cybersdorf · 25 Mar 2002, 00:22 (Ref:243267)

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
This is the best we can do for a GP course in southern California?! Gah, makes the Long Beach GP course look absolutely brilliant! THIS IS SUPPOSED TO REPLACE RIVERSIDE?! HERECY!!!

Can't someone _please_ build Buttonwillow or Willow Springs into an acceptable venue for a pro series?

Yeah, I get the politics about Grand Am racing on tracks NASCAR controls.

GrandAm has been turned into an all-roval series (with notable exceptions such as the Glen, I hope). And rovals are usually not very glamorous.
Some say that Daytona has the best laid out infield section of them all; I know they tried hard at the German oval, the Lausitzring. I have never seen Rockingham/U.K. but it certainly looks impressive on paper. Fontana, on the other hand, doesn't.
Coming to think of it, there is only one "roval" track I know of that actually leaves the confines of the oval itself, and that's Loudon. Are there any others?

Dr. Austin · 25 Mar 2002, 00:33 (Ref:243274)

The old roval at Pheonix did, but they may have changed it. I race there last in 1977, so i wouldn't be surprised. And I think the old Michigan International speedway used to. Either way, none of them are inspiring, but at least the fans can see all the track.

Rovals are all pretty much the same. Whip around the oval, zig, zag, zig, zag, whip around the oval. Repeat as necessary.

Lee Janotta · 25 Mar 2002, 00:48 (Ref:243282)

The Lausitzring has a _long_ test track next to the trioval similar to the old AVUSring which links to the oval and infield course. But Alborreto's death on that part of the track means it'll likely never be used for racing. Possibly just as well...

Texas World Speedway (not to be confused with the steep-banked oval the big series run on, it's an older facility) has a ton of different types of pavement that add up to a decent road course. Photo and diagrams at http://www.texasworldspeedway.com/

A few of the old European ovals have road courses that go outside the infield. The ancient Montléhery track near Paris had a 1.5 mile oval that formed one turn of an epic 7.8 mile road course. The course still exists, but is in disuse and disrepair... It desperatly needs revival and fresh investment, it's really a magnificent circuit, and was one of the early Grand Prix courses that was separate from public roads.

And of course, there's Monza...

I'm sure you've got it bookmarked, but there's a great site at

http://www.etracks.freeserve.co.uk/

which gives info about a ton of race courses.

cybersdorf · 25 Mar 2002, 00:54 (Ref:243287)

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
The Lausitzring has a _long_ test track next to the trioval similar to the old AVUSring which links to the oval and infield course. But Alborreto's death on that part of the track means it'll likely never be used for racing. Possibly just as well...

It also has an infield section that allows for a few configurations.

Quote:

I'm sure you've got it bookmarked, but there's a great site at
http://www.etracks.freeserve.co.uk/
which gives info about a ton of race courses.

Try this one as well: http://www.racingcircuits.net

Muzza · 25 Mar 2002, 03:07 (Ref:243331)

Some thoughts...

GrandAm
This championship should just not be happening. It is on for political reasons, merely.

Buttonwillow
Quite a track, several lay-out options, can offer large run-off areas... It only needes a patron/sponsor behind it. Drawback: located on a remote area.

Willow Springs
Interesting, but too short. Definitely a club track - albeit a very good one. I think the Brabham F1 team tested there once, preparing for the GP in Vegas... (and if they did, likely the lap record is still hold!)

Lausitzring
I REALLY hope that Alboreto's accident will not condemn the 11 km lay-out to disuse... The sad death of Alboreto - and of a marshal, in another accident, a few weeks later - has cast a shadow over Lausitzring, but those were things that could have happened anywhere, and are not due to problems inherent to the track. The long lay-out would be perfect for a 24-hour race!

Monthlery
What a fantastic lay-out. Very close to Paris. Could - should? - have become the permanent home of the French GP, and this already 50 years ago... (when was it opened? Something like 1927!).
Unfortunately the track is in total desrepair. I stopped there in 1998 on my way to Le Mans and it was disheartening to see the circuit the way it is today...
Alors, any "Save Monthlery" campaign?

Rovals
The Brasilia track - currently named Autodromo Nelson Piquet - offers an interesting high-speed outer loop with a very good road track built within it. Same for some other Brazilian tracks, but they are not true ovals - I prefer to call them as above, "high-speed outer rings". Examples are Curitiba and Goiania (similar lay-outs, but Goiania has much, much better facilities).
Oh, I had to mention the old Interlagos. I saw same races on the outer loop back in the mid-1980s, it was totally crazy! But now it has been made unfeasible by Formula 1's greed...

Cheers,

Muzza

Fab · 25 Mar 2002, 06:35 (Ref:243384)

Quote:

Originally posted by Muzza
Monthlery
Unfortunately the track is in total desrepair. I stopped there in 1998 on my way to Le Mans and it was disheartening to see the circuit the way it is today...
Alors, any "Save Monthlery" campaign?

Don't even think of it, Muzza ; the politics have killed it - especially François Mitterrand, who pushed to build a track at Magny Cours, where nobody goes...

I saw trumendous bike races at Montlhéry, years ago - eraly 80' -, called "le Bol d'Argent", same as Bol d'Or, but for semi-amateurs bikers... really fantastic, lot of battles...

Never see cars here, but there's sometimes Classics, if I can remember...

This suburb is poor, and the track is definitely forsaken to grass and ravens...

choked_wasp · 25 Mar 2002, 06:43 (Ref:243386)

Quote:

Originally posted by Muzza

Buttonwillow
Quite a track, several lay-out options, can offer large run-off areas... It only needes a patron/sponsor behind it. Drawback: located on a remote area.

Yeah, I think there is like 32 layouts for the track. Can offer, DOES offer huge runoff area's. The only bad part about the runoff area is the silt that gets melded everywhere in the car.

Lee Janotta · 25 Mar 2002, 06:58 (Ref:243391)

Quote:

Originally posted by Muzza
Some thoughts...

GrandAm
This championship should just not be happening. It is on for political reasons, merely.

Buttonwillow
Quite a track, several lay-out options, can offer large run-off areas... It only needes a patron/sponsor behind it. Drawback: located on a remote area.

Willow Springs
Interesting, but too short. Definitely a club track - albeit a very good one. I think the Brabham F1 team tested there once, preparing for the GP in Vegas... (and if they did, likely the lap record is still hold!)

Lausitzring
I REALLY hope that Alboreto's accident will not condemn the 11 km lay-out to disuse... The sad death of Alboreto - and of a marshal, in another accident, a few weeks later - has cast a shadow over Lausitzring, but those were things that could have happened anywhere, and are not due to problems inherent to the track. The long lay-out would be perfect for a 24-hour race!

Monthlery
What a fantastic lay-out. Very close to Paris. Could - should? - have become the permanent home of the French GP, and this already 50 years ago... (when was it opened? Something like 1927!).
Unfortunately the track is in total desrepair. I stopped there in 1998 on my way to Le Mans and it was disheartening to see the circuit the way it is today...
Alors, any "Save Monthlery" campaign?

Rovals
The Brasilia track - currently named Autodromo Nelson Piquet - offers an interesting high-speed outer loop with a very good road track built within it. Same for some other Brazilian tracks, but they are not true ovals - I prefer to call them as above, "high-speed outer rings". Examples are Curitiba and Goiania (similar lay-outs, but Goiania has much, much better facilities).
Oh, I had to mention the old Interlagos. I saw same races on the outer loop back in the mid-1980s, it was totally crazy! But now it has been made unfeasible by Formula 1's greed...

Cheers,

Muzza

Well, I'm torn on Grand Am. It's by no means a real championship. But it is nice as a sort of semi-pro version of ALMS, especially for the GT teams. More seats means more opportunities.

Willow Springs is actually over 3 miles in it's longest configuration. But it's extremely narrow, the pavement's in poor condition, and there's almost no infrastructure or support facilities... It'd take millions of dollars in corporate sponsorship to make a worthy international venue out of it. But, they performed the same miracle with Virginia (which is the only real suprise on Grand Am's schedule).

I'm also torn on the Lausitz test track. It's not _that_ exciting, but neither is much of LeMans these days... Of course, Germany already has a 24-hour race at a rather impressive venue.

I haven't come across any campaigns for Montléhery. Yes, it should have been the French GP's home. But internal politics kept it otherwise inexplicably swapping with Reims, which then took the race post war, along with Rouen, which admittedly was a very exciting venue. Then 4 different tracks hosted the GP in the '60s, before finally settling at Paul Richard, now missed simply because Magny-Cours in so miserable! Admittedly, since I can't read French, I couldn't even figure out who owns Montléhery. But it'd at least need extensive repaving, run-offs added, and a decent pit area and paddock. The oval itself is good, solid and durable, but needs retaining walls and catch fences at the top (and some seats!!!). With some improvements to the oval, they might be able to attract the new ASCAR series and get some cash flow! At present they seem content to just host club races, schools and track days on the short course.

Jeez, can't believe I forgot Rio. And Motegi might count. The road course is completely separate from the oval, but enter the oval's infield to entertain spectators.

Ah, Interlagos... One of the many tracks to mourn. I just hope the same doesn't happen to Montléhery. Europeans tend to have more respect for the past, though. And they're more practical. You don't just bulldoze something because you can't figure out what to use it for.

Lee Janotta · 25 Mar 2002, 07:14 (Ref:243394)

Gah, got my Willows confused (shouldn't post when I'm sleepy). Willow Springs is 2.5 miles. Not _that_ short, just very fast.

Nigel Mansell did the F1 test there, but Michael Andretti holds the record by .25 seconds in his old Kraco CART car.

Lee Janotta · 25 Mar 2002, 07:27 (Ref:243399)

Gah, got my Willows confused (shouldn't post when I'm sleepy). Willow Springs is 2.5 miles. Not _that_ short, just very fast.

cybersdorf · 25 Mar 2002, 12:41 (Ref:243584)

Quote:

Originally posted by Muzza
Lausitzring
I REALLY hope that Alboreto's accident will not condemn the 11 km lay-out to disuse... The sad death of Alboreto - and of a marshal, in another accident, a few weeks later - has cast a shadow over Lausitzring, but those were things that could have happened anywhere, and are not due to problems inherent to the track. The long lay-out would be perfect for a 24-hour race!

From what I know, the big loop was designed as a test track for the industry, not as a race track. In that role it is frequently in use. A bit like Nardo in Italy.

Muzza · 26 Mar 2002, 19:33 (Ref:244617)

Hello, Cybersdorf,

Yes, you are right about the test track, but I recall very well that the Eurospeedway Lausitz (Lausitzring official name) press releases and website stated that the long, combined lay-out (road track within the "CART" oval plus the AVUS-like annex) was designed for endurance races...

I guess I was too optimistic about this possibility. Why is that it always seems that sportscar racing gets less than what it deserves? (little organization, little support from FIA, little involvement by manufacturers, little media coverage - it is all connected in a multi-faced catch 22)

Lee Janota recalls the Nurburgring 24 h, but the chances of having a FIA or ALMS event in the REAL Nurburgring (the Nordschleife) are as high as of Alex Yoong being the 2002 F-1 champion...

Cheers,

Muzza

Lee Janotta · 26 Mar 2002, 21:22 (Ref:244705)

Quote:

Originally posted by Muzza
Lee Janota recalls the Nurburgring 24 h, but the chances of having a FIA or ALMS event in the REAL Nurburgring (the Nordschleife) are as high as of Alex Yoong being the 2002 F-1 champion...

Well, the Nurburging 24 is run on the full course (Nordscleife + GP). As for getting more serious racing there, well, goes back to my point from last week about the need to rivals to the FIA's authority. At present, they can make any number of demands of track owners just with the F1 schedule. Dangling a possible date like a carrot, or threatening to move an existing date (a particularly useful threat with the German tracks, with Hockenheim and the Nürburgring both perpetually on the chopping block in favor of third-world venues.

Muzza · 26 Mar 2002, 21:41 (Ref:244717)

Hello, Lee,

Yes, I know that the Nurbugring 24 h is raced on the Nordschleife (plus the GP track), but - with all my respect for the brave guys and gals that dare to tame the "Hell in Green" - that is not a world-class event.

Same for the Veedol Langstrecken-Pokal (mostly gentlemen drivers in a series of events all raced in the Nordschleife).

What I really would like to see is a major category running in the Nordschleife (GP track meant to be included).

Don Panoz is a brave enough guy to try the most fantastic ideas. And succeed. I remember when he said "do you think building a high performance car maker is tough? Oh, that's nothing - try growing vines in Georgia". I guess this says a lot about his character. I have a lot of appreciation for him.

I agree with your "never mind the FIA" approach. Maybe Don Panoz is your/our bloke to bring the Nordschleife back to the forefront... We should give him a call! (no joke)

Cheers,

Muzza

cybersdorf · 26 Mar 2002, 21:54 (Ref:244727)

There seems to be a misunderstanding here.
Who says the Nürburgring people themselves want to get the prototypes or F1 back on the Nordschleife? They don't. that's why they have the new track. It was cheaper to build the new track than attempting to bring the old track up to date in terms of safety. This isn't "just" include about a wider track, more run off space and some extra armco, it also includes things like accessibility of all parts of the track by safety personnel, and most of all that personnel itself. In short, it couldn't be done. GTs are just about the fastest cars the old track can take. This isn't the FIA's fault, or anyone else's, it is the nature of the track. It is a 1927 vintage monument of pre-war racing. Everyone is quite happy to keep the ring going as it is - keep it alive without reinventing it (which wouldn't be possible anyway). In fact, the old track has benefitted quite a bit from the "incorporation" of the new GP facility with its state-of-the-art pit building, and infinitely more convenient paddock.
As for the "two German venues", Germany has, at last count, five permanent venues. If another race track in some other part of the world comes along (be it the "third world", be it - for instance - the US) and lures a race away, hey, it's called competition. Same as "let's have an alternative to the FIA". Besides, Germany doesn't need two rounds of everything. It's bad enough that there are two Schumachers.

cybersdorf · 26 Mar 2002, 21:58 (Ref:244732)

Quote:

Originally posted by Muzza
Hello, Cybersdorf,

Yes, you are right about the test track, but I recall very well that the Eurospeedway Lausitz (Lausitzring official name) press releases and website stated that the long, combined lay-out (road track within the "CART" oval plus the AVUS-like annex) was designed for endurance races...

I am sure you are right; but I remember the way the track's manager stressed in the days after Alboreto's accident that that portion of the track was "for testing purposes only", and that the "race track proper" was absolutely safe. May just have been his way of talking himself out of it, though.

Muzza · 26 Mar 2002, 23:15 (Ref:244795)

Hello, Cybersdorf,

I fully agree with your - quite insightful - remarks about the posture of Eurospeedwaz Lausitz when Alboreto was killed.

Their press releases were rather business-minded (not a surprise) - much more concerned on asserting that the track was not to blame than on regretting the loss of a fellow, great driver. I remember reading very defensive statements by the Eurospeedway Lausitz spokesperson - when nobody was even expecting them (I was surprised by the content).

And it was much worse when a marshal was killed during a touring car open practice session, some weeks later. The same spokesperson called the marshal "crazy" (this was the word used in German). And again more slip-out-"we are not to blame" language about the track by their managers.

I may have been too optimistic about the possibility of having races on the long lay-out - but, again, I just read what was written in the website and on their press releases. Bu the way, i just checked their website, http://www.eurospeedway.de - guess what, the wording is no longer the same...

Business as usual,

Muzza

cybersdorf · 26 Mar 2002, 23:35 (Ref:244809)

Quote:

Originally posted by Muzza
And it was much worse when a marshal was killed during a touring car open practice session, some weeks later. The same spokesperson called the marshal "crazy" (this was the word used in German). And again more slip-out-"we are not to blame" language about the track by their managers.

Yep, from what I remember the marshal probably did make a mistake, and misjudged the situation, but nevertheless, very poor choice of words by the officials on both occasions.

cybersdorf · 26 Mar 2002, 23:38 (Ref:244811)

As far as a "Say Oui to Monthlery" campaign, hey - why not? There is a similar effort on the internet with regard to the Monza banking.

cybersdorf · 27 Mar 2002, 00:05 (Ref:244828)

One more thing - I know I'm waffling away here but Lee and others have brought up so many topics in one post that are worth replying to

- as for the Nürburgring 24 not being world class - I beg to differ. The front running cars may not be quite as fast as those in FIA GT or ACO-GTS because they are restricted down to "GT 2-and-a-half" by a power-to-weight regulation. But, can anyone from the ALMS or FIA GT simply walk away with a win here? No way. For instance, I believe that there is only one American GT team at the moment that would have a hope of winning the 'Ring 24, and that's Team Corvette - simply because they are running in a league of their own right now ("Corvette" is English for "Audi", it seems). And I have a feeling they wouldn't have the time to sit in the pits and wait for the end of the race...

Muzza · 27 Mar 2002, 00:22 (Ref:244835)

Cybersdorf, Fab, Lee,

A campaign to save Monthlery - what a great idea! Do count on me.

I don't think the track has even a website.

The last news I got from Italy was that the Monza banking had at last been saved. Our friends in Finland have a very nice campaign about the Keimola track.

Fab, your comments, please.

Anyone else lives close to Paris?

(should we call Don Panoz? Just pulling my own leg...)

Cheers!

Muzza

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