Safety in Club Motorsport

[Dan Friel]

before starting this thread, I must stress that I'm not commenting on any specfic incident.. it's just the latest events have caused me to think about the general issue of safety on our circuits.

Over the last couple of seasons, there have been several deaths in club motorsport, is this just a bad and tragic streak?? they don't seem to be associated with any specific circuit or corner...

But there is a trend with them all, contact between cars prior to the events... maybe I'm wrong, but it would be wrong to react against the circuits and perhaps its time to really make sure that everyone knows what a little 'nudge' on the circuit might turn into - to make sure that this doesn't happen again in the future.

And having watched the BTCC round from Brands on video last night.. then that's a good place to start punishing drivers and making examples..

[Peter Mallett]

Not only is racing more "assertive" throughout there is also a consideration that whilst most club racing saloon/sports cars are moving into the "classic" realm. The technology in the engines is modern. That means that perfomance is starting to outstrip the original basis of the car in question. Just look at the speed of MGB's and Midgets. With that in mind its not surprising that we get some tragic events.

[Stephen Green]

Good point Peter, especially with the 'classic car racers'.

As for touring cars, a few years ago when we marshals were told to report EVERY contact, no matter how small, it ended up 'sanitising' the races. Those days of Andy Rouse etc banging doors and taking off wing mirrors were what the public flocked to watch.

One of the problems in my opinion is that racing 'appears' to be safer than ever, especially when one looks at the horrific accidents in Formula 1 where the driver walks away, jumps into the spare car and drives in the race. This attitude seems to be spilling over into national racing. The aggressive yet often impossible overtaking manoever, the gentle nudge from the rear, just enough to spin you off the track and ruin your race. All of these things are creaping into racing, often following the standards set by those in more senior classes of racing.

It's a catch 22 situation in many ways. Safety versus entertainment. In my view safety should always come first, but then I'm not the young charger trying to make a name for himself and climb the ladder to stardom.

Dit of a dilemma really innit???

[ghinzani]

Its strange the way that F1 F3 f300/f2 has seen a decline in fatalities since the 70s yet the 90s and now the 00s still seem to throw up an unacceptable amount. From hillclibms/sprints to circuit racing we still seem to get them - I remember being shocked by the deaths of Ian Mcardell and the two at Oulton Park in 91 (Warwick and the nice bloke in a formulae renault whose name escapes me, Andy something?) and thinking that things would change. But with the mini deaths, the one in the alfa and now those tragic ones at cadwell, it seems little has changed.

[AndyF]

Yep, as Stephen says it's a catch 22 situation. Although not directly relevant, various ideas were tossed around in the Formula One scene like the removal of chicanes, extension of run-off etc. Unfortunately it is tracks like Mallory, Cadwell and Oulton that take all the flack, and yes things could be done to improve all the circuits in the UK. Silverstone is an FIA Formula One circuit, yet not imune to these terrible tragedies.

[Dan Friel]

Peter.. perhaps an example of what you are talking about is the MGOC series. this year they're allowing the Midgets and MGB's to have uprated (1b) Yokos.. in fact they're a control tyre, and also a uprated cam. Cornering speeds have shot up, and when i spoke to a few drivers they were complaining of their suspension being pulled apart.

it suddenly makes Midget racing a bit daunting...

[EvilPumpkin]

I'm with Stephen on this one - a lot of drivers seem to think they're indestructable and whenever an incident occurs, everyone starts pointing fingers at circuits, safety committees and everyone except themselves

A classic example of this is a recent issue that occurred at a kart meeting I was at. A chicane was put in place - (I won't go into the whole saga behind THAT) and there was a relatively serious incident there involving a 14 year old karter. A big meeting was had with drivers and parents and the decision was taken to continue with the meeting.

Then there was another serious incident.

Immediately, everyone was pointing fingers at the chicane, at the safety committee(s) involved, at the organisers, at the circuit..... but no-one mentioned that a) everyone racing had been aware of the danger and continued to race anyway and b) a lot of drivers had totally ignored the yellow flag put in prior to the chicane to prevent overtaking at that point.

Safety is as much attributable to a state of mind and a way of behaving as it is to environment.

[Rod Birley]

You only have to look at some of the antics in the Renault Clios to know there is a problem. I witnessed the fiery shunt at Brands from the inside of the safety car and I am still amazed no one got seriously hurt.

[rick vaux]

With upgrades come a lot of other problems, im` just talking from my experience as a youngster with my various Mk2 escorts. I used to lower them, upgrade wheels, manifolds,steering,diffs etc,the cars used to go like stink, but try and stop the car, well fade and brick walls come to mind !
That aside,
What is the answere ? does anybody know..Looking at the incident with the two minis at Silverstone last year. We had two, in my opinion well respected drivers, who on that day had their numbers called in by the boss above...It can be said the track was damp and they were on slicks, this may well have attributed to the outcome, i didnt` see the incident, or the footage so i cant` comment on that.
It, along with other incidents this year, have though proved the strength of the cars we see, i have breathed a sigh of releif many times when the driver has finally got out of the car.
There must be a fine line though, from doing your best and having fun, to keeping sponsors happy with podium finishes,the latter not too happy with the plodder..
There too are drivers who " hate " the guts of other drivers, and will go all ends legally or otherwise to be a higher finisher, or better still the only finisher out of the two.
To finally rap up my comments, the unfortunate drivers who have lost their lives through motorsport have done so doing what they loved. We all understand the risks involved and accept them, last of all though, we must respect the sport for what it is..

[Chris Y]

A lot of the serious accidents in recent times have happened on straights. I believe that in the recent accident at Cadwell, the two cars banged together on the straight, and then speared off into the barriers. Certainly, I've witnessed major accidents like this in the Mini 7s and Miglias, most notably at Mallory Park.

The Mini Se7ens and Miglias have now introduced new rules into their formulas to reduce the amount the wheels protrude from the bodywork, so in the event of two cars clashing, they don't get tangled and end up out of control.

This has nothing to do with circuit safety. Like someone said, it could have happened anywhere. Steve Bell was killed in a Mini Miglia at Silverstone, but there haven't been any calls to make that track safer..

In some ways, some cars are being made stronger, to the detriment of driver safety. Space-frame cars with fibreglass shells have no crumple zones, and more of the force of the impact is transmitted to the drivers. Drivers' bodies are firmly strapped to the seats, but often, the head is free to move - serious neck injuries are often the result.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe driver safety needs to be looked at more closely in future, rather than blaming the circuits, or increasing run-off.

[Lee Janotta]

I think some of the folks here have really touched on something important, that I'd like to expand on.

Being a racer 40 years ago meant hearing just about every weekend that someone you'd either known or watched had died in a crash. Whether you were a pro or just a club racer. It was horrible, but those who survived learned just how dangerous the sport is, and that one stupid mistake could be the last they'd have a chance to make. And so while they did their utmost to race at the limits of their talent and their machines, they were always careful to leave room for the other drivers on the circuit. Sure, driving competitively might mean a bit of fender rubbing, but not in an attempt to put the other guy off the track. Hell, if you needed to go by and didn't have room, it'd be just as likely you'd take to the grass to go by.

These lessons of close and safe racing have lasted a long time, but they seem to be wearing off now. Racing in becoming more and more combative, with drivers deliberatly trying to put others out of races. A lot of them just don't show professional respect to their competitors. And respect is essential when you're racing around a fast circuit in a flimsy tub of steel and fiberglass.

[alfaman]

I think the answer does lie in driver safety.

If you look at the recent fatalities they've all been in club racing, Minis, Alfas and now this GT/sports series run by the 750MC. These are true amateur championships where some of the cars are getting on a bit and drivers are on a budget.

Despite the closeness of Formula Ford the Zetec chassis are very strong as are F3, TVR Tuscans etc.

I saw that big Clio shunt at Brands in June but these are very new cars with all the latest safety equipment and I think that is the crucial point here.

No driver goes out to shortcut safety but the older the car gets the older the safety equipment (minus the helmet + overalls) will be.

I also think that drivers are taking larger risks at the moment - just look at the Castle Combe FF1600 championship this year - some of the races have been more like a destruction derby (and it's only just over a decade since a leading driver was killed in that series.)

I don't want to see racing sanitised and not many racing drivers adopt the "after you" approach but after that Brands Clio shunt I did notice that driving standards in the re-started race did seem to be much better. Perhaps it's like drivers who slow down on the motorway for a few miles after seeing a pile-up......

We all know freak accidents will happen but I think the clubs, drivers and the MSA have to get together to try nd make that as rare an event as possible but without sending costs for the club racer through the roof.

[brickkicker]

Just a quick question to Chris Y in your reply you say "The Mini Se7ens and Miglias have now introduced new rules into their formulas to reduce the amount the wheels protrude from the bodywork" looking at the blue book it says that no part of the wheels should protrude from the bodywork anyway.
After being a marshal for a few years now and seeing some big shunts I have to agree with some of what has been said regarding it being more dangerous in club racing, the racers are all trying to save money and I think a lot look at it as it wont happen to me. This ranges from not replacing helmets through to racing with an empty fire bottle. This should be top of the list of a racer its a small price to pay for your own life.

[EvilPumpkin]

oh yes - or racing with the extinguisher pinned - that one is very popular. Keep it unpinned through scrutiny and then pop the pin back in as soon as you move out.

Helmets are another one - I've seen this happen with bikers too - they go through scrutiny with a beautiful shiny new helmet and then as soon as they get through, they change into some cracked battered POS that probably wouldn't protect them if a leaf landed on their head. The reason? Helmets are too expensive to risk damaging.

I've seen 3 incidents this year where if the driver/rider had not been wearing a helmet they would have, at the very least, suffered severe head injuries.

Mercifully, people like this are in the minority - but they're out there - and they might be racing against you next......

[THR]

i think the point about making the old cars go faster is quite true... should be stopped as they arent designed to go that fast.

has there really been more this year than b4? usually hear of a couple a year.. perhaps just unlucky this year?

[JR Ewing]

At any club meeting, I look around and see cars I would be reluctant to drive in the paddock - let alone on the track.
So many people drive cars which are clearly not up to the job and even in things like Caterhams - just look at the cars and you can see why people are killed in them - they are just so exposed. Look at, for example, a single seater like an FF Zetec and it would take a bomb to get in to the driver...

[Mark Benson]

Having just taken (and passed ) my ARDS test, I am amazed that, although the test is focussed on safety, it really doesn't test a driver's undertanding of either the consequences or causes of racing incident.

The driving section asseses a candidate's ability to pass and be passed, but does not (and I guess cannot) simulate the racing experience. I suppose that means it would have to be the written portion of the test to test the candidate's knowledge of this area.

I was amazed that the written portion of the test was a multiple chioce affair, with a choice of 5 answers, 4 of which were often so peurile that common sense dictates the correct answer. What about showing a video of a racing incident and asking the candidate what they saw as the cause and how it could have been prevented, what each driver could have done to avoid the situation etc. Add a couple of examples to the 'Go Racing' pack video to show the kind of analysis required, and have an experienced instructor talk the incident through with the candidate afterwards to ensure understanding.

I just felt that the ARDS Test was more of a formality (and perhaps an excuse to relieve the aspiring driver of yet more cash) than a requirement of the candidate to demonstrate a through knowledge of motorsport safety.

[Stephen Green]

Hi Mark,

Welcome to ten-tenths.

Much of what you say makes a lot of sense. I thought the 'novice X' on your car was supposed to let others know of your relative inexperience?

Let me invite you to join me marshalling for a day, it counts as a signature on your licence. It would enable us to speak freely about safety and the type of things we see as marshals. You may find it useful!

[RMR]

I also think that drivers are taking larger risks at the moment - just look at the Castle Combe FF1600 championship this year - some of the races have been more like a destruction derby (and it's only just over a decade since a leading driver was killed in that series.)

Alfaman, wholeheartedly agree. Its concerned me alot and ive even left the championship you named. I never knew anyone was killed in this champ though. When/who was it and where on the cicuit?

Generally though the safety of some of these cars is poor by todays standards. If you watch the guys racing there historic single seaters how often do you see wheelbanging etc. I think alot has to do with respect of the car and respect for other people. Aggression is too much involved in todays Club racing, I'm not sure why it is, maybe there is a pattern between aggressive driving and wealthier competitors?

[Mark Benson]

Funnily enough Stephen, I've just been browsing the Marshal's forum and come across that very topic - I was going to speak to someone at Combe (my local circuit) but if you're offering (and you're serious) I'd love to.

As mentioned in EvilPumpkin's thread, drivers get shown precious little of what the Marshals do and more importantly, what we should do to help you do your job efficiently. It would also be a good idea to see first-hand some of the more common mistakes and hear your comments on them.

Feel free to email me or send me a private message and I'd be more than happy to spend a day with you, thanks for the offer.

[av8rirl]

Originally posted by JR Ewing
So many people drive cars which are clearly not up to the job and even in things like Caterhams - just look at the cars and you can see why people are killed in them - they are just so exposed. Look at, for example, a single seater like an FF Zetec and it would take a bomb to get in to the driver...

Caterhams/7's are dangerous. Remember Mallory last year (another 750MC event).

While FF Zetec has been lucky these past few years, just remember back to Outlon '99 and Neil Shanahan.

Basically the sport is dangerous and we take the risks associated with it. Personally I would rather I never had to race Mallory or Cadwell (mountain), because they are two tracks where you are just asking for trouble. Because of the championships I've competed in, I had to race here for points. I know its only a hobby but we all like to be in with a shout at the end of te season.

The other point about cars not being up to the job is also well made. Hopefully, the MSA (other national organisations, organinsing clubs/bodies, etc...) can learn from these accidents and do their utmost to stop the carnage.

I'm originally from a Vee background in Ireland and know that its really only a matter of time before someone is killed. This year (as with last year and the year before), we've had some major accidents that can only be attributed to the drivers. The amount of hatred in the pits (and carried onto the track) is unreal.

[TimD]

I think a distinction must be drawn between cars built now not being up to the job, and the so-called Historic classes.

I must confess I would think twice about racing - say - a glassfibre and spaceframe replica of a C- or D-Type Jag or a Cobra. They are primarily show cars for the street, and racing is a secondary pursuit for them. However, no-one would, I am sure, want to legislate out of existence the cars that have raced for decade upon decade, whose drivers accept the inherent risks of running older machinery, and drive accordingly.

In Vintage race circles, it is pretty much accepted that the slightest touch of cars could conceivably be lethal, and so they simply don't do it. This is quite apart from any inherent respect for the machinery they are using. When something does happen, such as the alarming incident this weekend at the Bentley Drivers Club meeting, the worst is often assumed, simply because there is so little between the driver and the tarmac.

Thankfully in that case, the outcome of being flung from a rolling car was a couple of broken bones, but it could so easily have been worse. The point is, however, that the driver will have accepted the car for what it was, including the safety measures or lack thereof. His competitors will have been acutely aware of precisely the same thing, because they have placed themselves in the same situation. The key thing is that they respect one another's space and one another's machinery. With the result that while accidents can occur, I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a collision between two competitors in a vintage car race.

[av8rirl]

Originally posted by TimD
With the result that while accidents can occur, I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a collision between two competitors in a vintage car race.

Brands Hatch, 27/28 April 2002. This is the last UK meeting I was at (and probably only one of very few that I've ever seen with a vintage class). The driver was thrown clear from the car after contact out of Paddock.

I've also seen may classic FF's making contact. But generally I think the vintage classes have more respect for their machinery and competitors than the newer classes. The probability of a HUGE repair bill is maybe another factor!!

[R Hollebon]

Having read the debate on safety I would add the following observations, firstly racing has become a lot more popular over the last 10 years and I suspect that that fatalities per mile race/test etc are in fact down in recent years, secondly this generation of drivers/marshals etc are from the play station generation, and have seen their hero's push each other around on TV, a lot of them also have to much money

[EvilPumpkin]

Um you want to qualify that statement R? I don't know of any marshals that indulge in or support this kind of behaviour - remember, we're the ones who have to clean up the consequences of such behaviour. I don't think you'll find very many marshals who enjoy having to deal with injured drivers, or god forbid, a fatality.

Very few marshals are likely to be from the "playstation" generation bearing in mind that the first playstation was released in 1988 - even allowing for people who were influenced by the Playstation in their formative years, the minimum age for marshalling is 16 with parental consent at a permanent circuit.

As for marshals having too much money, what spare money we do have is usually spent on equipment and travel. It's not spent financing people trying to kill each other - it's spent trying to make things as safe for drivers as possible. We don't get paid to marshal and we don't receive much (if anything) in the way of subsidies. You don't marshal for the money.