Lowndes Shafted

[Ray Singcar]

Where is the consistency. Lowndes is penalised 3 starting positions for a non performance related technical infrigemnet whilst for his (so called) non performance related technical infringemnet Ambrose gets off scot free.
My opinion is if a car doesn't comply when scrutineered after a race or qualifying session then it should be excluded from the results of that race or qualifying session!!

[GTRMagic]

It certainly makes a mockery of the AVESCO/TEGA plans to tighten up this area....

There needs to be a list of grades for things that are done wrong, and a B&W penalty of $$ and/or exclusion from either the session or the meeting and/or points loss...

... as long as you put people in charge of the process with the authority, knowledge etc etc to not have every decision chucked on appeal.... so perhaps it needs an AFL/NRL-style Monday night session with all parties concerned, with all the junk they need to make the 'right' call!

[Onlooker]

What was the infringment?

[GTRMagic]

They havent told anyone yet, its not even in the FPR press release!

[rdmdog]

FPR are unlikely to advertise the stuff up, any more than the on track race day advertising of their inadequacies

[worried]

Ummm Ray - Ambrose didn't get off scott free - they still got a $5,000 fine.

[Ray Singcar]

Then FPR should have received a monetary fine.. not lose 3 positions. What I am agrieved about is the inconsistency.

[GTRMagic]

I agree with you Ray, the inconsistency is at least consistent.... if that makes sense

We dont see LP whinging about Lowndes' car do we?

[stoned pony]

Perhaps the answer here is, as GTR Magic suggested, a tribunal style hearing but with independent arbitrators rather than CAMS/AVESCO people.
Wow! Can't believe I just typed the word "independent" in relation to two motorsport bodies.

[Average Punter]

Originally posted by GTRMagic
They havent told anyone yet, its not even in the FPR press release!

Barry Oliver interviewed a Pom bloke from FPR named Nick (?surname) on the course PA during the warmup. He said they got pinged for having 6.5 degrees of advance instead of 6.

Afraid that means nothing to me so if there are any engine boffins out there who might be able to explain it...

[Onlooker]

Gee that is pretty harsh, but then again rules are there to be enforced.
Not a big deal really, and it isn't like it is an extra wire or an underweight crank. Things that are just a bit of a slip up 3 grid spots seems fair enough to me the other 2 are really just plain stupid things to be caught for.

[Conrod Kieron]

It refers to initial ignition timing AP. Its actually 6.5 degrees before top dead centre (BTDC), top dead centre refers to the piston veing at the top of its travel.

If you advance it, you light the match a little earlier, ie as the piston is still coming up, this lights the air/fuel mixture slightly earlier and is generally done to increase power slightly.

Doing it too early of course will reduce power and doing after TDC will reduce power.

[Onlooker]

But not and out and out infringement, given the amount of work that is being done on those donks at the moment could just be a simple oversight where one thing was changed and effected other things

[Conrod Kieron]

A mistake, just like the wire. But potentially a mistake that gains a few hp, the lightweight crank 'mistake' means less reciprocating mass and an ultimate performance gain

[retro]

Originally posted by Conrod Kieron
A mistake, just like the wire. But potentially a mistake that gains a few hp, the lightweight crank 'mistake' means less reciprocating mass and an ultimate performance gain

That *mistake* in the timing would be a bigger problem than the *SBR wire* but equal (roughly) to the *crank* - in my view. Do these penalitys work on who you are?

The extra timing may have been to make the engines last (as viewed by a pommie engine man) :-)

[mixxer]

Can someone show me/point me in the direction of the rule that regulates the amount of ignition timing.

This 6% or 6.5% of timing doesnt make a lot of sense unless they are talking about the phase difference between the crank and camshaft - you retard the camshaft timing in relation to the crank position and that will result in a stronger power up top whilst taking away power from low in the rev range, advance the camshafts position in relation to the crank and the opposite occurs - more power down low, less up top. This Retarding/Advancing of the camshafts is acheived by using a cam gear with offset keyways
Note this is over simplified so the layman can understand

[Onlooker]

Maybe it was to much vaiation in the ECU,it is adjustable.Remember the little wieghts and springs in the bottom of an old points dizzy,I think it did a similiar thing.

[mixxer]

Still doesnt make a lot of sense and ignition timing is a strange animal to understand,
all engines have there initial ignition timing advanced for ease of starting (as well as other things)
ie 6% - 10% BTDC (Before Top Dead Centre) at idle and a total advance of around 35% - 42% measured higher in the rev range (note examples only)

[Codger]

Basically, (very basically, there are many variables) advancing the timing has the effect of raising the peak pressure in the combustion chamber which can be detrimental to piston rings, bearings Etc.if excessive, it also reduces the power output as any pressure in the cylinder BTDC is acting against the rising piston (i.e. negative power), retarding the timing will reduce peak pressure, increase power however it means a later burn of the fuel which can be detrimental to exhaust valves. Getting timing spot on throughout the RPM range is absoltely vital in order to achieve maximum power and conserve the engine.

[mixxer]

Codger now youve gone and done it, there will be people here scratching their collective heads for hours over what you posted
Good Stuff

[Codger]

Should I say sorry or thanks ??

[mixxer]

LOL

[retro]

Originally posted by Codger
Basically, (very basically, there are many variables) advancing the timing has the effect of raising the peak pressure in the combustion chamber which can be detrimental to piston rings, bearings Etc.if excessive, it also reduces the power output as any pressure in the cylinder BTDC is acting against the rising piston (i.e. negative power), retarding the timing will reduce peak pressure, increase power however it means a later burn of the fuel which can be detrimental to exhaust valves. Getting timing spot on throughout the RPM range is absoltely vital in order to achieve maximum power and conserve the engine.

Add a cam with a bit of overlap and most of those problems are overcome and you still have more power.

[Ray Singcar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by retro
[B]That *mistake* in the timing would be a bigger problem than the *SBR wire* but equal (roughly) to the *crank* - in my view.

Cant agree with that, particularly when the real reason for the wire has never been disclosed.

[Woody75]

I agree with Retro these penalties do seem to be based on who u are at times.

I remeber a time when HRT always use to get away with murder