British Championship Rallycross 2005

[Upside Down Bug]

The thread about the super series seems to be developing the idea that it is replacing the current British Championship. This is not the case.

The BRDA Championships will continue into 2005, catering for all the cars that have been competing this year. It important to remember that the 'D' in the title is for Drivers. The BRDA is owned by its members and shaped by their wishes. There is honest, and often brutal, debate within the club about all its activities. This is healthy and based on the premise that the club is solely interested in trying to achieve the best for rallycross in the UK.

Stock Hatch, Minicross and Junior Rallycross will continue to be able to compete in the British Championship meetings. It is recognised that these classes form the backbone of rallycross in this country.

The basic Championship structure will remain for 2005 (and beyond till the drivers decide otherwise). That is MSA British Championship for Supercar and Super Modifieds, BRDA for all classes but hosted at British Championship meetings, Junior Rallycross to develop the youngsters in the sport and the BTRDA Clubman’s as a cheaper alternative to those drivers who wish to race on a regional basis.

It is also recognised that costs of competing at British Championship level have increased (and I don't intend to start the entry fee debate here). So, although the calendar is not finalised, I understand it will be limited to 8 rounds in 2005.

The BRDA are very keen to develop the clubman’s championship. A number of views have been expressed about how to improve it, such as the thread on 10/10ths about the lessons from Belgium. They are currently looking at the class structure and eligible vehicles.

BRDA Championships are a balancing act, catering for all rallycross classes in the UK, they are not concerned with being a commercial venture seeking to take the cream, but leave the rest behind.

[Queen]

Well said.

[Cryos]

It is also recognised that costs of competing at British Championship level have increased (and I don't intend to start the entry fee debate here). So, although the calendar is not finalised, I understand it will be limited to 8 rounds in 2005.

UDB, you make an valid statement. I understand that you do not want an debate on fees here, but removing rounds of the championship gives organisers less rounds to spread their operating costs over (which in anyones view are way to high at the moment).

No Matter what you can say about the current championship the old expression that ' first impressions leave an lasting impression ' what im trying to say is that the BRDA has earned an name for itself, its debatable from person to person the caliber of the name it has created.

An new championship, new rules and maybe new drivers is just the thing that the sport needs, living in the past with old rules helped nobody. Competition in any industry always bennifited the consumer, if it becomes an sucsessfull alternative to the current championship it will be an brisk wakeup call for the current organisers to change their championship.

Basicaly the old championship has had its chance to shine and did but not as everyone expected, so let something new come along and see which is the better championship.

the current class structures could be filtered in manyways to the new regs, but the key words are Homologation, entry fees and flexability.

The idea of the new championship Leaves the old machinery in the shed where it belongs or on an clasic retro rally, it will spawn new current machinery with new technologies being used.

Entry fees is always an debatable issue, but in theory the more entrys you have, the lower the fees will be. There fore entry fees initialy will be low and pending the sort of attention the championship gets it will decide the standard entry fees.

Flexablility, the new championship can provide drivers with an new flexablilty as regards spending, car choise and running costs. Drivers can spend less than the current championship and have an class winning car. Car choise is significantly improved as Nova A's 205's Metro 6R4's and all out of homolgation cars will be left to the side, new fresh cars will take to the tracks.

Its New Vs. Old and history shows us that New is always better

[BertMk2]

I realise that super series isn't replacing the BRDA championship but will drivers compete in both? Potentially you'll end up with a situation where the entries get split between the two series and neither has enough entries for a quality meeting (although I guess the BRDA will have less of a problem with entries as they're not excluding stock hatch amd minicross).

Rxie - a new championship may leave old machinery in the shed but that doesn't garauntee those same drivers will build new cars - they could just leave the sport altogether - new cars cost money (they may be cheaper to build to the new regs but building a new car is not cheaper than using your current one).

Also I don't see how car choice is improved by only allowing homologated cars - surely that drastically reduces car choice? (As you say Novas, 205's and the 6R4 would no longer be an option - how many of the current field would we lose?).

As for new vs old - new always better? Are you sure about that? Group B vs WRC? Supertourers vs s2000? Opal fruits vs Starburst

[Matti Alamaki]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Upside Down Bug
[B] It important to remember that the 'D' in the title is for Drivers. The BRDA is owned by its members and shaped by their wishes.
The basic Championship structure will remain for 2005 (and beyond till the drivers decide otherwise). That is MSA British Championship for Supercar and Super Modifieds, BRDA for all classes but hosted at British Championship meetings.


Upside down Bug,

I am glad to hear that the format will not be changed as I think as you say it's a good balancing act. As long as quotas are kept on class numbers.

But from a BRDA members point of view, I would like to see the "New non existant Modified class droped". It has been tried but, it hasn't worked.

Why not introduce Division 2 Reg's (Up to 2.0L 16v 2WD GRP N) as a stepping stone for stock hatch drivers. It can't be that difficult to try for a year. There is a huge amount of ready made modern cars available in Europe for this class. Plus there not beyond current stock hatch drivers to build.

Stock Hatch drivers are not moving to Super Modified as you well know. These drivers are young and competitive. Trying to put themselves onto that sort of level playing field at an affordable price is not a realistic proposition.

If the BRDA don't try something like this they are going to lose more & more drivers. Is they're anybody listening out there?

[Cryos]

Also I don't see how car choice is improved by only allowing homologated cars - surely that drastically reduces car choice? (As you say Novas, 205's and the 6R4 would no longer be an option - how many of the current field would we lose?).

Im glad you said that :P

http://www.universalsalvage.com Pick yourself up an current model car for dirt cheap, the new rules means that you cannot have lunaticly built cars like Mr. Evan's Micra which cost as much as the Appolo Space Missions all put together

By limiting what machinery people can use it means that thers no lunatic sorta engines or configurations for the new series of cars. So say goodbye to the Nova 1600 and 1800 engines and say hello to Newer Economicaly Friendly 1400 and 1600 Opel Eco-**** engines .

Bert Mk2 theres alot more to this than initaly meats the eye, but its one of those One thing leads to another situations.

Yes new has always been much better than old!! here an an few examples

Pentium 4 is much better than pentium 3 etc..
Body Shells are much better than older shells, due to new lazer welding techniques stopping 40% body roll and 80% Static Role.

Older Competition Tires are laughed at compaired to new tires.

The old German Repulic was inefficent and corrupt compaired to todays Germany!.

Old techniques of removing limbs were painfull and an grussum afair, now you can have you limbs of with no pain or life threatening situations!

Matti Officialy theres nothing out yet so i dont think anyone can comment yet on the classing structure to be used.

[flagwaver]

It is alright talking of another rallycross series but if the MSA won't sanction it will not happen.

[Cryos]

If the msa wont sanction it it can be appealed to the FIA which can grant an sanction. But MSA is not likely not to sanction it if theres an tasty preposal for media involvement.

One thing that i dont think most people realised is that rallycross started off as an media sport and cars were relitivly budgeted, gradualy over the time people started to take head of advances in automotive technology. It is clear to see that an change of rules is welcome if you take an page out of the BTCC book, supertourers were outlawed and costs have been substancialy reduced, same goes for most touring car series now.

JGTC Especialy, Lunatic engines and 4WD were outlawed at the end of this year it has seen the championship come closer and more competitive. Any Class of racing that says you cannot do anything to the car past an certain point has always been very sucsessfull.

Heres an list of very competitive and championships bursting with Entries:

Peugeot 206cc Cup (france)

Formula BMW

Volkswagen Polo CUP (Germany)

Volkswagen Lupo CUP (Japan)

Yaris Cup (Spain/Portugal)
(dont speak spanish so i cant get pictures :P )
Volkswagen Cup (United Kingdom)
(couldnt find the site for the vw cup)
Renault Clio Cup (United Kingdom)

Us Irish showing you guys how to drive
Fiat Arbarth Cup (Ireland)

Alfa 147 Cup (Europe)(Eoin Murray should win it :P )
german championship images
Formula Women (Mazda RX8's) (United Kingdom)
(cant find any images on website but did notice this "Calls to the Information Line are charged at £1.50 per minute. You must be 18 or over to make the call and you must be the bill payer or have the bill payers' permission" what exactly dose this line do :P ?)
Seat Cupra Cup (United Kingdom)


New rules always good new championships always good too the outlook is promising

[bigted]

Bursting with entries?

Clio Cup- Drivers leaving after every Race

Formula Woman - pure media series ( shant say any more as i dont want to start a bashing thread

Cupras - Dying on their wheels, drivers who have no budget and a series that accepts lots of physical contact.

[Cryos]

Still the series have attracted alot of media attention and it is close competitive racing.

But the rest of the series listed work. Limitation of what can be done to the cars as i said will see persons come back to rallycross.

[Matti Alamaki]

One make series/Standard classes do work.

But, "Formula Woman" is a kick in the face for Motorsport Enthusiasts. Why couldn't they of got some genuine female racers???

[Cryos]

lol i seen an race of Formula woman, and theres only about 2 decent drivers and they are nothign special.

The rest are more concerned about their nails than keeping the car on the track!

[Upside Down Bug]

There's been some interesting comments on this thread so far, but it appears to be heading off thread slightly, so lets bring it back.

New v Old. This is an age-old debate, but I don't subscribe to the view that just because it's new it has to be better. Surely the measure should be one of quality. We can all think of new rules that were better and some that were worse. I think the relevant one here is what happened in rallycross in the mid-nineties when the organisers decided to scrap the British rules over night and bring in European rules. This led to the farcicle two round championship in 1996, and the loss of a lot of long-term competitors. The BRDA rescued rallycross by launching the Compomotive supported championship for 1997, with hardly any entries. Steady and sustained growth has gone on since, to the point where the clubman’s championship had to be separated from the MSA Champs for 2004.

The strength of the BRDA rules has been stability, and any changes are made on a gradual basis, with the support and input of the drivers. This includes the gradual introduction of European spec engine rules in the super car class. All European spec cars are currently catered for within the class structure for the MSA Championship.

Both the spaceframe supercar rules have only produced the odd car on track, but there are several others that never made it to the track. The modified rules are in their infancy, but there are cars already competeting and others being built. These drivers should be encouraged. There are no plans to drop these classes or any others. However, both these classes were shaped by the driver’s wishes, and it would be wrong of any club to dictate to drivers what they should do. It is interesting to note that both the Junior class and stock hatch classes were born out of the input of drivers too.

All the one-make championships mentioned above, do (or did) give close racing, but when the manufacturer has achieved their aims they walk away and leave the drivers with no support. Only a few of these sort of championships ever really prosper after the manufacturer went. The only parallel in rallycross was the Nova challenge. This was fantastic for the sport and brought good drivers in and some personalities too, but Vauxhall withdrew, and the series died. A few of the cars remain in the sport today, but very much changed, Dave Bellerby’s for example.

Overall, it has to be a partnership between the drivers and their club, to develop rules to meet the needs of the sport, and not to seek to make money out of the sport at the drivers, and the paying spectators cost.

[Queen]

What I dislike in all of this is the fact that we are all rallycross fans and now the politics have taken over it all.

[Cryos]

Politics are the backbone of most structured organisations and race groups there fore its compleetly relevant here

[Upside Down Bug]

I agree that politics should not come into any form of motorsport, but sadly it's unavoidable. Whenever there is a choice, then in come politics. What I think is important that rallycross fans should support what they think is in the best interests of the sport. My personal choice is a steady evolution, as shown by the BRDA over the last few years.

[Matti Alamaki]

Steady evolution certainly.

Would droping the Non Existant Modified class & introducing "Up to 2.0L 2WD 16 valve Stock Hatch/Group N" be steady evolution?
Nice selection of some more modern but, standard 16 valve machinery?

We need a steping stone for stock hatch drivers to Super modified. This type of class would be perfect. Does BRDA & memebers not agree that were losing too many stock hatch drivers year after year due to there been no class which appeals to them after stock hatch?

[Roundy Mooney]

Originally posted by Matti Alamaki
Steady evolution certainly.

Would droping the Non Existant Modified class & introducing "Up to 2.0L 2WD 16 valve Stock Hatch/Group N" be steady evolution?

I would support this idea also but I would be careful to keep the 'Group N' part of your idea out of the equation.
As ROYG says in another thread 'homologation sucks'.

The formula is simple:1.Take the current stock hatch rules
replace the 1.6 at the top of the regs with upto 2.0 2wd 16v.{means a big selection of cars old/new, 8v or 16v a car a current stock hatcher can afford}

2.Bring in weights and specs for each car proposed from day one.

3.Put road patern tyre on them (I Keep hearing that the Brda is run for the competitors and not been a member i can't comment on that but there wasn't one irish stock hatch driver who was pleased at our AGM that year with the change to competition tyres. The only reason we did was to keep in line with british rules a reason I can understand by the way.But if all of us paddy's felt that way there must have been a good number of british competitors felt the same. Was it ever voted on at your AGM? Its great if you happen to be in the top three for prize money but just another expence if your not.}sorry rant over

4.Get out enjoying the racing again with some more neddies under your right foot to bring you even quicker to the seen of the accident

[Cryos]

letting stockhatch run upto 2.0 with 4 valves per cylinder or an maximum of 16v is an great idea, it would breach the massive gap between stockhatch and modfied in both the uk and ireland.

However i know for this year there was an rule that you couldnt run Un-cut slicks in the irish championship, however looking at supercar it seems to have been abbolished like many of the rules that were tryed to be implemented. Organisers have to take an firmer stance with drivers in my opinion.

[NACHTW]

I'm with Roundy Mooney and Roy G on this one.

Don't remember the drivers being asked about new tyres - it just appeared. I've (and how many other people ?) still got a pile of the old one's round the side of house that no one will have even for free ! suppose the dump beckons.

I still think the up to 2.0 16 valve group is the answer to replace the modified failure. The current 7 by 15 maximum wheel size could be retained and perhaps LSD's and standard pattern kevlar panels could be allowed for the wings and lower quarter panels though to keep the cars looking nice (this would not be the difference between winning and losing and could take a bit of battering without having to be constantly replaced). The rest of the car would have to remain "standard ?" in line with stock hatch rules.

[Matti Alamaki]

I can see a common consensus of agreement prevailing.
Could anybody approach the BRDA directly on this suggestion?

[Roundy Mooney]

Originally posted by rxie

However i know for this year there was an rule that you couldnt run Un-cut slicks in the irish championship, however looking at supercar it seems to have been abbolished like many of the rules that were tryed to be implemented. Organisers have to take an firmer stance with drivers in my opinion.

Completley of thread i know!!

BUT


At the AGM it was decided by the organising commiteeand drivers that full slicks could be used in 2004 and be reviwed at the end of the season. It all looked very democratic to me.

[RoyG]

2-litre GpN+/SuperStock - call it what you will.

This option on these lines was suggested when the "Sub-Modified" class was at the proposal stage - rejected by BRDA in favour of the less-than-successful new "Modified" class. I thought then (still do) that it was a good proposal for several reasons -

1. Loads of ex-Rally Class N3 cars available for not much money
2. With 150+ bhp & LSD loads of fun to drive
3. Very close in concept to Division 2 (much closer than the present "Modified" regs are to Div1a) In fact with a little bit freedom in the regs a Division 2 car could be eligible.

This is pretty academic as there's no chance of this happening in the immediate or even medium term future.

Stock Hatch tyres

I was a BRDA Committee member when the 048 Yokohamas were adopted as the Stock Hatch control tyre. I did contact a large number of Stock Hatch drivers for their opinion on the change - the vast majority favoured no change. This I reported to the Committee, but the vote went in favour of the change. The main reason given was that Yokohama were not prepared to continue sponsorship and ensure on-event tyre fitting facilities if the old S306 was retained. My view was that the extra expense for the large number of competitors involved was not worth the sponsorship provided. I felt so strongly that the drivers' interests were not being served that I resigned my Committee position.


Politics!

As UDB says - inevitable in any organisation. It's great to have someone like UDB who is a good listener and who exerts whatever political pressure he can in a very practical and pragmatic way.

[Matti Alamaki]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RoyG
[B]2-litre GpN+/SuperStock - call it what you will.

This option on these lines was suggested when the "Sub-Modified" class was at the proposal stage - rejected by BRDA in favour of the less-than-successful new "Modified" class. I thought then (still do) that it was a good proposal for several reasons -

1. Loads of ex-Rally Class N3 cars available for not much money
2. With 150+ bhp & LSD loads of fun to drive
3. Very close in concept to Division 2 (much closer than the present "Modified" regs are to Div1a) In fact with a little bit freedom in the regs a Division 2 car could be eligible.

This is pretty academic as there's no chance of this happening in the immediate or even medium term future.


Roy,

Why do you feel this is pretty academic in the immediate or even medium term future. If this is what drivers want and consensus tells us here that it's the logical way forward?

[bucko]

natchw ...is what you wrote not the sub mod rules ??? i know what you are asking about the stepping stone from stock hatch to modified can evolve a large expense but you can get cheap parts if your prepared to hunt them down