So where will JV be in relation to Alonso in China?

[muzza4ever]

There is a saying that your first job in F1 is to beat your team mate.

OK so we've had approx 700Kms of testing and 2 practice sessions at Shanghai which discounting the extra familiarity with the Renault that Alonso has this is the closest we'll get to JV and Alonso being on a level playing field.

Indeed, it could be argued that JV's experience should compensate for Alonso's knowledge of the Renault thereby putting them on a completely level playing field - but that's a whole other thread.

I have 2 questions therefore:

1) Where, relative to Alonso, will JV finish, considering that currently he's approx 3 tenths down on Alonso's best time?

2) What would you define as success for JV this weekend?

Assumptions for the questions are that both drivers encounter no problems throughout the weekend that will disadvantage them more than 3 places on the grid - unlikely I know but I suppose I'm after your thoughts on how you rate these 2 in direct comparison.

[Jordi]

Scoring points would be success for Jacques. Finish ahead of Alonso, a bigger success. Podium, even more.

[ASCII Man]

Scoring points, that's what he's there for.
Podium would be great, albeit maybe a bit premature.

[muzza4ever]

I agree Jordi

Personally I think if JV can get within 1 tenth of Alonso all weekend that will be a success.

Despite what I said in my original post whilst JV does have the experience advantage I think even in the last year the cars have moved on so much that Alonso's experience of having had all season with the car puts him in the driving seat (pardon the pun).

I think all things being equal and if JV is still within that 3 tenths margin after 1st qualy he will be ahead of Alonso ny the end of the weekend. I'd like him to show Alonso how it's done.

[Jordi]

I'd like that too. Not so for Alonso's defeat but for Jacques being back.

[Testure]

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves folks. Scoring a point would be success after a year out of F1. Remember, he hasn't even been in any kind of proper racing car since last year, let alone a competitive F1 machine. Scoring 2 or more points would be brilliant.

I don't think a podium is realistic at all. The BAR is definitely the better car and the main reason BAR aren't further ahead of Renault is Sato's lack of points earlier in the season. I'd imagine Jacques would be behind Fernando in most timings, at least in this first race. Fastest race lap might be an interesting comparison, but let's give the guy a chance.

Anyway - success is scoring a point and/or finishing withing 2/3 positions of Fernando.

[muzza4ever]

Jordi

Again I agree - for me Fernando is one of the hot properties of F1 and so to see him lose is not good - but to see him beaten in a good clean fight with JV would make great racing. Because I don't believe it's going to be any sort of walk over for JV

Testure

I see what you're saying, I think. I agree to a degree. We could start a whole new thread or a number of threads about how we're over-reacting/placing too much expectation on JV's shoulders here.

However, tongue not too firmly in cheek, JV is partially to blame here - he is after all the driver that after the year out came back and was within half a second of Fernando on his first full day of testing. And by day 3 was in front of him (although in fairness IIRC Fernando didn't test on the third day).

But this is, in itself, great news for F1 - JV is back and no matter what he manages over the remainder of the weekend - people are talking about something other than how boring F1 is/How Ferrari/MS are killing F1. It's only good news!

Be good to see Senna and Prost at their prime coming into the sport now as well as Hakkinen, Rosberg, Lauda, Hunt, Jones, Stewart, Moss and Surtees (in no particular order) to name a few to battle it out - my god what a championship we'd have then!

Anyway this post is rapidly turning all sentimental - Shanghai is looking great here's to the racing - time for bed.

[Tony Fast]

We all know JV is a brilliant F1 driver and if I was a betting man I would say Jacques would beat Fernando in one of the next three races. come next season JV will be the man to catch.

[sgjb]

I really feel the a success for Jacques would be if he finished ahead of Sato. It is up to Alonzo to beat Button man on man, if that doesn't happen they will not catch BAR in the championship.

Jacques scoring a point would be extremly successful and even a top ten would be good. If Jacques is ahead of Alonzo or is faster at any point would be tragic for Renault as it would really expose Alonzo to alot of bad press. If Jacques was ever faster than Alonzo then many of the pundits who have called Jacques washed up would have no choice but to eat their words no questions asked!

[Teretonga]

Great idea muzza, I'd love to see a championship with all that talent in one race... but not in the current or recent years...maybe if they were in F3000 or GP2 or A1 cars it might be different but having someone of Lauda, Rosberg or Moss's talent in a Minardi or Jordan? What would be the point?

[Adam43]

Originally posted by sgjb
Jacques scoring a point would be extremly successful and even a top ten would be good. If Jacques is ahead of Alonzo or is faster at any point would be tragic for Renault as it would really expose Alonzo to alot of bad press. If Jacques was ever faster than Alonzo then many of the pundits who have called Jacques washed up would have no choice but to eat their words no questions asked!

I'll look forward to writing off Alonso and accepting Villeneuve as the greatest driver ever after this particular session/lap/sector happens.

I would not be so quick to dismiss someone. However that line of reasoning is convienent for JV as he will struggle to come out bad. Alonso beats him it is because JV has been out of it for some time. JV occassionally finishes ahead of JV means that Alonso is finished. Although if JV destroys Alonso...

I think it is quite likely that JV will be ahead of Alonso at some point, however I shall not be basing any opinion on one time (or not much of an opinion). Rubens can (and it isn't that rare) be quicker than Schumacher. However when this happens occasionally I don't suddenly think Michael is no good.

We need to watch these three races and try to get an idea. Even that might not be enough, but it is all we have until winter. I'm sure Alonso will be ahead of him and I am sure Villeneuve will come out on top occasionally.

What will be more important to me will be the general attitude and feeling about how the weekends go for JV.

[Adam43]

Despite saying that What do we have to go on so far? Sector times?

Friday Practice 1
Driver      S1       S2       S3     Theoretical   Actual lap
Alonso    25.532   28.867   42.292     1:36.691     1:36.884
JV        25.850   28.991   42.399     1:37.240     1:37.240

Friday Practice 2
Driver      S1       S2       S3     Theoretical   Actual lap
Alonso    25.205   28.457   41.651     1:35.313     1:35.514
JV        25.531   28.606   41.714     1:35:851     1:35.851

Theoretical lap time is the sum of all the best sectors. Actual lap is the best lap they recorded. JV set his best sector times on his best lap, Alonso didn't get three 'greens', they are spread over at least two different laps.

And with all this speculation lets have a quote from the man himself:

JV
Q: You are quite close to Alonso, does that please you?
JV: Yeah, it is always good to be close to your team-mate, so that’s good. It took a while to get there, though, but I can use the benchmark from my team-mate and work from that.

http://www.formula1.com/race/news/2254/729.html

[Rich R]

impressively close to fa. just needs to find a bit more time in all 3 sectors, but especially the first.

[Adam43]

Rich R. JV has said he thinks T1 and T2 are the hard corners (both in S1 obviously): http://www.formula1.com/race/news/2254/729.html

JV
The hard corner is turn one and two.

Overall I wonder how is JV coping with the handling of the Renault. It is generally very understeery. Is that a good thing or bad thing for him?

[Adam43]

Again, sorry to keep including actual information from Jacques himself, but here is one to look out for in Q tomorrow (er today!):
http://www.formula1.com/race/news/2252/729.html

JV
Everything was going pretty well by the end of the day and I was setting consistent times, but I still need to work out how to get the best out of a new set of tyres for a single flying lap.. That is one of the areas I need to concentrate on before qualifying tomorrow

[Kirk]

Yes and Alonso did get the better of him in a flying lap, however judging by the reaction from JV's crew on the radio, they were not displeased. And if JV is true to form he may have elected (if given the choice that is) to go with more fuel than Alonso. In any event I am sure JV was happy to get that first real competitve lap under his belt without incident.
As a footnote, apparently both Renaults were heavy in fuel; somewhat of a mystery as to why that may be.

[Adam43]

JV normally choses more fuel. I've heard that before, but I suspect he'll talk to the Renault engineers as it may not be as viable in this years Renault with these tyres? It'll be decided by looking at the data, not by what JV used to do. So maybe, maybe not.

Where did you hear that the Renaults are fuelled up? And also, with your assumption that JV always runs more does that make it a mystery?

[Adam43]

Saturday Practice 1
Driver      S1       S2       S3     Theoretical   Actual lap
Alonso    25.494   28.641   41.906     1:36.041     1:36.226 
JV        25.609   28.559   41.675     1:35.843     1:35.965

Saturday Practice 2
Driver      S1       S2       S3     Theoretical   Actual lap
Alonso    25.045   28.095   41.487     1:34.627     1:34.627
JV        25.194   28.541   41.389     1:35:124     1:35.309

Pre-Q
Driver      S1       S2       S3     Actual lap
Alonso       ?                        1:34.599
JV           ?                        1:34.425

Q with fuel
Driver      S1       S2       S3      Actual lap
Alonso    25.085   28.097   41.735     1:34.917  (6th)
JV        25.220   28.425   41.739     1:35.384 (13th)

Alonso changed the car a lot after pre-Q. Apparetnly (ITV) he had lots of oversteer (!) as well as understeer!). Alonso was still not 'totally happy', 'not a fanastic set-up' and 'so-so' (ITV).

ITV say Renault are running more fuel (also there is a chance that the pit lane speed limit will be decreased for tomorrow to improve safety when the cars are stopping on the slippy pit lane).

[Kirk]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore

Where did you hear that the Renaults are fuelled up? And also, with your assumption that JV always runs more does that make it a mystery?

TSN's Donaldson stated his "source" told him so. The mystery I was referring to was: What has Renault to gain by doing so? It seems to me that running heavy, therefore lower on the grid, would to an extent neutralize their notoriously quick launches. Anyway I opened a new post on stategies as it could be a large factor.

[Adam43]

Afterwards I heard it on ITV (the first time it has been shown )

Well they are fuelled because they think it is the quickest way to run the race. Neutralising the launch? Well they always have the advantage on top of what ever they do. More fuel and getting ahead of the guys with less - sounds ideal. Getting ahead of someone with the same fuel is OK, but then they'll have the pace on you (in theory).

However, as you say, see the strategy thread.

[BootsOntheSide]

Four tenths away isn't too bad for JV, it looks worse than it is because that area of the grid was so close. I suspect that the Rneaults are running similar fuel, so it's a moderate success for JV. Let's see what the starting system can do.

[Mr V]

JV admitted that he had a bad lap, fuel doesn't come into it imo

[Kirk]

As a JV fan, I consider that good news Mr V. I know we can't expect JV to be on pace yet but it is good to (already) know that he has more in the bucket. That said, I think Alonso does also; the setup has been hard to find for him as well and Renault appear headed for a tough go.

[ralf fan]

4-tenths isnt too bad!! i mean this kid Alonso is something special in terms of speed....

it would really be unfair to expect JV to blow ALonso away...

[Don K]

If I remember correctly, Villeneuve has been a few tenths behind Alonso in all sessions.
But that's not bad; Alonso is one of the greatest talents on the grid, and he knows the car.

I am not exactly a fan of Villeneuve, and I rate him lower than Alonso and Truli.
But according to my calculations, he should be one of the 10 fastest drivers on the grid in that Renault.
And as we will probably have a couple of non-finishers amongst the top-9 during the final three races, I certainly expect Villeneuve to score a couple of points.

So I guess any unbiassed member should expect Villeneuve to perform even better than that.